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Question.... How to measure groups.

The meplat holes are off center. That shows bullets were yawing into the target and tearing the center holes at different sizes and angles.

The center one has a blue paper pushed into the center from the 1 o'clock position. The top left one has it pushed from left to right. The top right one is from 7 o'clock and in. The lower left one is from 10 o'clock and in.

All the holes seem to be the same size, slightly ovular and are cut at different angles into the target. If I remember correctly, and yes I acknowledge, my memory is faulty, the back of the targets showed nothing unusual except for the different angles of each entry.

The IBS has seen and examined these pictures. Jim Bauer responded to me on this picture. Contact him for that information.
 
Here is the back side of the above target as requested. Please understand that quite a few people have poked and prodded at the hole formed at 11:30 in the ten ring which probably alters it somewhat. I will say that everyone interested enough to look at the target went straight to that hole which would lead one to think that something appeared different about it. If possible, please view the front view above with a smart device and use your thumb and forefinger to pan open the hole and see what you think.
 

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This target was one of four the Manatee scoring team had to deal with in just one weekend shoot at 600 yards. I was part of the judging team called in to render an opinion. Don't remember my particular decision but do remember that I personally had a different opinion than the other two judges on two of the decisions. Later found out the official scorer had the same decisions as I did. None of that is important other than to say these decisions are very difficult for a variety of reasons.

Since the shoot I have spent more time discussing this with three IBS officials. I have emphasized that things like this seem to be happening quite often to us. Others at the shoot spoke to me about noting this issue at other shoots around the country. Because of that I have proposed to the IBS possible solutions. Have not received any notification of any decisions on this yet. Maybe some inquiry from other shooters would be useful to them?

I have firmly asked that in the absence of definitive proof there are the correct number of shots in the target AND the shooter swears they did not experience any mechanical issues they are aware of and no mitigating evidence, that shooter be allowed to shoot the target over.

To me it is a sorry state when hideous bad luck has a good shooter make a perfect entry in another hole and is punished for it with no recourse.

Starting at a club shoot this March we are going to experiment with various ways of creating some kind of backing paper behind the main target and see if that could work. Having sighter plates close behind may make splatter tears so bad it will not work but we are trying

It bothers me that this situation exists with no recourse to verify shots fired and impacts received. Hope it bothers others as right now there is no way to deal with this. In the future it will be difficult to find people who would volunteer for the trauma of having to make a decision that could negatively impact good shooters who have bad luck. Being hinted of incompetence and senility, no matter if correct or not, is not a pleasant experience. Even hints of prejudice in scoring add to the displeasure of being a scoring judge. I think there needs to be a reasonable out. That's why I proposed a "shoot over" addition to the IBS rule book for consideration in the future.
 
Viewing the front target and now view in the back of the target it sure looks to me it was only four shots on that target.
Thank you
Al. B
 
math can be difficult, measuring devices troubling.

I’ve gone to describing my 5 shot groups in terms of common household items like Hershey morsels and Cheerios. Non shooters appreciate it since they don’t understand groups in the 1’s or 0’s

E76499B5-D340-468C-8529-F9F90171919C.jpeg 934E55E9-61DC-4CD6-A2DE-6B55BA30059B.jpeg
 
I’m not sure quite how to measure this one
 

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Here is the back side of the above target as requested. Please understand that quite a few people have poked and prodded at the hole formed at 11:30 in the ten ring which probably alters it somewhat. I will say that everyone interested enough to look at the target went straight to that hole which would lead one to think that something appeared different about it. If possible, please view the front view above with a smart device and use your thumb and forefinger to pan open the hole and see what you think.
Thanks for the reverse pic. It confirms what I originally thought, it bulges to one side . I would judge it as 2 holes. I score and a target like this is tough. Sometimes which everway you go, someone else is unhappy. I will say, I hate scoring by committee. Couple 4 or 5 guys older than me, passing targets around, touching holes as they squint at them, don't shoot any longer due to poor eyesight or they never shoot........ugh. I prefer one guy looking at every target with the same thought process in his head. I have heard scoring groups arguing if it touches the line does it count.......getting heartburn now, looking for the Tums
 
This target was one of four the Manatee scoring team had to deal with in just one weekend shoot at 600 yards. I was part of the judging team called in to render an opinion. Don't remember my particular decision but do remember that I personally had a different opinion than the other two judges on two of the decisions. Later found out the official scorer had the same decisions as I did. None of that is important other than to say these decisions are very difficult for a variety of reasons.

Since the shoot I have spent more time discussing this with three IBS officials. I have emphasized that things like this seem to be happening quite often to us. Others at the shoot spoke to me about noting this issue at other shoots around the country. Because of that I have proposed to the IBS possible solutions. Have not received any notification of any decisions on this yet. Maybe some inquiry from other shooters would be useful to them?

I have firmly asked that in the absence of definitive proof there are the correct number of shots in the target AND the shooter swears they did not experience any mechanical issues they are aware of and no mitigating evidence, that shooter be allowed to shoot the target over.

To me it is a sorry state when hideous bad luck has a good shooter make a perfect entry in another hole and is punished for it with no recourse.

Starting at a club shoot this March we are going to experiment with various ways of creating some kind of backing paper behind the main target and see if that could work. Having sighter plates close behind may make splatter tears so bad it will not work but we are trying

It bothers me that this situation exists with no recourse to verify shots fired and impacts received. Hope it bothers others as right now there is no way to deal with this. In the future it will be difficult to find people who would volunteer for the trauma of having to make a decision that could negatively impact good shooters who have bad luck. Being hinted of incompetence and senility, no matter if correct or not, is not a pleasant experience. Even hints of prejudice in scoring add to the displeasure of being a scoring judge. I think there needs to be a reasonable out. That's why I proposed a "shoot over" addition to the IBS rule book for consideration in the future.
Great answer although I am not sure about the reshoot part. You mentioned the official scorer felt a certain way. If so why wasn't his decision used?
 
This target was one of four the Manatee scoring team had to deal with in just one weekend shoot at 600 yards. I was part of the judging team called in to render an opinion. Don't remember my particular decision but do remember that I personally had a different opinion than the other two judges on two of the decisions. Later found out the official scorer had the same decisions as I did. None of that is important other than to say these decisions are very difficult for a variety of reasons.

Since the shoot I have spent more time discussing this with three IBS officials. I have emphasized that things like this seem to be happening quite often to us. Others at the shoot spoke to me about noting this issue at other shoots around the country. Because of that I have proposed to the IBS possible solutions. Have not received any notification of any decisions on this yet. Maybe some inquiry from other shooters would be useful to them?

I have firmly asked that in the absence of definitive proof there are the correct number of shots in the target AND the shooter swears they did not experience any mechanical issues they are aware of and no mitigating evidence, that shooter be allowed to shoot the target over.

To me it is a sorry state when hideous bad luck has a good shooter make a perfect entry in another hole and is punished for it with no recourse.

Starting at a club shoot this March we are going to experiment with various ways of creating some kind of backing paper behind the main target and see if that could work. Having sighter plates close behind may make splatter tears so bad it will not work but we are trying

It bothers me that this situation exists with no recourse to verify shots fired and impacts received. Hope it bothers others as right now there is no way to deal with this. In the future it will be difficult to find people who would volunteer for the trauma of having to make a decision that could negatively impact good shooters who have bad luck. Being hinted of incompetence and senility, no matter if correct or not, is not a pleasant experience. Even hints of prejudice in scoring add to the displeasure of being a scoring judge. I think there needs to be a reasonable out. That's why I proposed a "shoot over" addition to the IBS rule book for consideration in the future.

Pistol shooting has been using backing card board because of this issue for years. 1m to 2m back distinctly shows all shots. Rifles may need a little further, not hard to test. Check out the overlays for double shots and line calls
 
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One other thought on scoring, if you have to stare at it and agonize over it.......give it to the shooter. Just do it every time that way and in every situation. That is why I feel one person scoring is important.
 
Great answer although I am not sure about the reshoot part. You mentioned the official scorer felt a certain way. If so why wasn't his decision used?

There were four targets showing the same problem. The scorer did make a decision on two of them. One decision the scorer made was that there were five shots. Another the scorer made was there were NOT 5 shots and the target was a DQ. That was protested for a jury ruling and the DQ upheld.

On two more the scorer could not make a decision. That scorer called for the judging group to make the decision and is the scorers' option. They were done at scorers' request. The scorer could not make a decision.

One decision was not unanimous but went 2-1 in favor of the shooter. I seem to remember ( man I hope I am right here) that I was the one voted against there being the required number of impacts. Not important as 2-1 was the decision and the target was scored and allowed.

The target pictured here was also the same thing. I thought I remembered the vote but am not sure now. Either way it was another DQ.

Later I spoke with the scorer on his opinion after the rulings. He thought the rulings matched his opinion. It was just that he had doubt and asked for the judging group to make two decisions. This revelation was made to me after the second day of the match when all was over and decided.

Personally if I find it hard to say that evidence exists when it is not clearly visible. Decades of scoring targets in competition always had me dealing with "tangent" looks at scoring hits. This scoring does have that scoring factor where "tangent" goes to the shooter. There's nothing tangent in this scoring issue. You need to see something that is conclusive that there are multiple shots in a hole. Seeing things cut differently on an angle due to bullet yaw adds to the problem.

The shooters getting the DQ were both offered the opportunity for us to send the targets to the IBS for scoring. Both declined. Maybe both were nice enough to realize something else? If no decision can be made until the IBS rules, then if that shooter might be involved in the overall win, the prize table, all awards etc. would have to be delayed for weeks until the process played out. Think about that mess. I cannot speak for the others making decisions but for me the DQ decisions were disappointing personally but were following the rules. Same but opposite feelings can be said by me for those targets approved. That is why I have spent so much time and effort to deal with the issue - including right now. I want a better way.

Scoring would be different if we were dealing with a world record group or agg. size. Send the targets to the IBS. That probably would not affect final awards and prizes, delaying everything an indeterminate time. For this issue of shots on target, I think we need a ruling that allows a way to address the issue in a more prompt manner. There is nothing like that in the rulebook at this time. There is also no backing target to deal with it. All I can think of is the possibility of a re-shoot option, like is done with the unknown extra shot in a target. That is not an option right now.

You have a better idea? Contact the IBS.
 
There were four targets showing the same problem. The scorer did make a decision on two of them. One decision the scorer made was that there were five shots. Another the scorer made was there were NOT 5 shots and the target was a DQ. That was protested for a jury ruling and the DQ upheld.

On two more the scorer could not make a decision. That scorer called for the judging group to make the decision and is the scorers' option. They were done at scorers' request. The scorer could not make a decision.

One decision was not unanimous but went 2-1 in favor of the shooter. I seem to remember ( man I hope I am right here) that I was the one voted against there being the required number of impacts. Not important as 2-1 was the decision and the target was scored and allowed.

The target pictured here was also the same thing. I thought I remembered the vote but am not sure now. Either way it was another DQ.

Later I spoke with the scorer on his opinion after the rulings. He thought the rulings matched his opinion. It was just that he had doubt and asked for the judging group to make two decisions. This revelation was made to me after the second day of the match when all was over and decided.

Personally if I find it hard to say that evidence exists when it is not clearly visible. Decades of scoring targets in competition always had me dealing with "tangent" looks at scoring hits. This scoring does have that scoring factor where "tangent" goes to the shooter. There's nothing tangent in this scoring issue. You need to see something that is conclusive that there are multiple shots in a hole. Seeing things cut differently on an angle due to bullet yaw adds to the problem.

The shooters getting the DQ were both offered the opportunity for us to send the targets to the IBS for scoring. Both declined. Maybe both were nice enough to realize something else? If no decision can be made until the IBS rules, then if that shooter might be involved in the overall win, the prize table, all awards etc. would have to be delayed for weeks until the process played out. Think about that mess. I cannot speak for the others making decisions but for me the DQ decisions were disappointing personally but were following the rules. Same but opposite feelings can be said by me for those targets approved. That is why I have spent so much time and effort to deal with the issue - including right now. I want a better way.

Scoring would be different if we were dealing with a world record group or agg. size. Send the targets to the IBS. That probably would not affect final awards and prizes, delaying everything an indeterminate time. For this issue of shots on target, I think we need a ruling that allows a way to address the issue in a more prompt manner. There is nothing like that in the rulebook at this time. There is also no backing target to deal with it. All I can think of is the possibility of a re-shoot option, like is done with the unknown extra shot in a target. That is not an option right now.

You have a better idea? Contact the IBS.
Thanks for the response. I no longer compete in the IBS. I have a full match schedule without all the travel, fortunate in where I live.
 
The time has come to take this topic in a different direction. It has been brought to my attention that I took the opportunity to take a comment made here and post a personal grievance. In so doing the original posters topic was hijacked. For this, I apologize to the OP and all others involved. I do wish for something good to come from this topic. At Reese Bottom where I do most of my shooting, we have had excellent success using the Neil Jones tool attached to a set of 6 inch calipers to measure groups. We have since gone to allowing the Shotmarker E-Target system do all of our measuring and scoring. Pretty amazing to see it all work. One other thing: the camera on a smart phone can be a valuable asset when used to get a expanded view of a bullet hole. Just take a relatively close photo, then open the photo and use your thumb and fore finger to pan and enlarge the hole. Again, I apologize if I am the only one that had never seen this used. Check us out at the website shown in the avatar, better yet come join us for some long range shooting the third Saturday of most months. WWE
 
The time has come to take this topic in a different direction. It has been brought to my attention that I took the opportunity to take a comment made here and post a personal grievance. In so doing the original posters topic was hijacked. For this, I apologize to the OP and all others involved. I do wish for something good to come from this topic. At Reese Bottom where I do most of my shooting, we have had excellent success using the Neil Jones tool attached to a set of 6 inch calipers to measure groups. We have since gone to allowing the Shotmarker E-Target system do all of our measuring and scoring. Pretty amazing to see it all work. One other thing: the camera on a smart phone can be a valuable asset when used to get a expanded view of a bullet hole. Just take a relatively close photo, then open the photo and use your thumb and fore finger to pan and enlarge the hole. Again, I apologize if I am the only one that had never seen this used. Check us out at the website shown in the avatar, better yet come join us for some long range shooting the third Saturday of most months. WWE
Few threads run straight and true if they fill 2 pages. Your twist to me brought up a very interesting topic, scoring. Plus, the original author heard quite a few ideas on measuring groups. I have been enjoying the entire thread.
 
Good thread. Scoring can be nerve wracking. In my 20 years of competitive shooting, I've only agreed to be scoring juror a handful of times.

For measuring groups - Ballistic-X. I'm extremely stingy when it comes to putting apps on my phone. Ballistic-X is one of few apps I felt worthy of inhabiting my phone.
 

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