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224 Long Range Heavies; are there some that don't hold up?

I have been reading a number of posts/threads about heavy Berger and Sierra(?) bullets and their ability to hold up under the stress of the high RPM required to achieve long range stability. I have conducted a few load tests with the new Berger 85.5 grain bullet and used a fairly mild load behind Berger 90 grain VLD's at mid range with good results.
As always, the challenge is to do the least amount of load development and come up with the best performing reliable load. With this question I am trying to get to the nut. The 85.5 grain bullet seems to be holding up at long range but it seems there have been experiences with bullet failure with the 90 gr VLD's(?)
Since the acceptable weight for bullets used in Palma competition with the 223 Remington has been increased to 90 grains it behooves one to use the heaviest legal, reliable bullet available. Thank you for your comments and your time.
Tom Alves
 
In my 22BR, the 85.5 Berger is the only heavy that doesn't go poof with regularity. My testing is limited, but 20rounds in a row and not a single blow up is really promising. The 88, 90s, and 95 all start going poof after 3 in a row at a moderate pace. Ultimately, I think it all comes down to your barrel. I believe I got unlucky and have a slightly undersized bore that strains the jackets more. Some folks with a big 22 Creedmoor and 6.5 twist barrels can push a 90 VLD very fast and never blow one up.
 
In contrast to Boisblancboy, I have had jacket failures running the 90 VLDs from a .223 Rem out of a 6.8-twist barrel at comparable velocities. They can and will fail if pushed too hard, but there also seems to be a measure of luck with regard to where the exact failure point might be with a given setup and/or Lot# of bullets. Pushing the 90 VLDs at spin rates of ~300K RPM or higher is one way to increase the risk of jacket failure. You can certainly try to decrease the odds of jacket failure with the 90s by not using a twist rate faster than 7.0, by using a 0.219" bore instead of 0.218", or by tuning to the next slower node, which would be somewhere around 2770- 2780 fps from a 30" barrel, rather than the 2830 to 2850 fps range.

A direct comparison of the box BCs for the 85.5 and 90 VLD is not an apples-to-apples comparison. The 85.5s come pointed in the box and have a G7 BC of 0.268, whereas the 90s are not pointed. A more realistic G7 BC for a pointed 90 VLD is 0.290. If you compare the predicted external ballistics for an 85.5 @ ~2875 fps with a BC of 0.268 to that of a 90 VLD @ ~2840 fps, you will observe that there is a distinct advantage to the 90 VLD load; about 0.3 MOA at 600 yd and 0.5 MOA at 1000 yd. Note that those two velocities are quite realistic for the two bullets using H4895. Nonetheless, a reduction in wind deflection from a higher BC bullet is of little value if the bullet never makes it to the target ;)...ask me how I know this LOL.

So the real key is how much risk are you willing to accept for an improvement in performance? As mentioned, using no faster than a 7.0-twist and/or no tighter than a 0.219" bore are a couple ways to help ensure the 90 VLD jackets won't fail. The 85.5 Berger with its shorter bearing surface is probably noticeably more resistant to jacket failure than the 90 VLD. However, half an MOA windage difference in the two bullets at 1000 yd is a LOT IMO. In the end, only the user can decide whether 0.5 MOA less windage at 1000 yd is worth some increase in the propensity for jacket failure. I have never yet lost a 90 VLD out of a 7.0-twist barrel, only out of the faster 6.8-twist barrel. Likewise, using the slightly less tight 0.219" bore should also be of benefit, and putting the the two approaches together (7.0-twist barrel with 0.219" bore, something I have not yet tried) would likely have very little risk of causing the 90 VLDs to fail at all.
 
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I can shoot the 90s at 3050fps. I can shoot the 85.5 at 3200fps. With that speed differential, the 85.5 have a notable advantage.
 
I can shoot the 90s at 3050fps. I can shoot the 85.5 at 3200fps. With that speed differential, the 85.5 have a notable advantage.

That certainly is true when you have that kind of a velocity differential, but that largely depends on the rifle setup; i.e. cartridge, barrel length, etc. In the .223 Rem, the velocity differential for tuned loads with the 85.5s and 90s should not be anywhere near that large.

@Boisblancboy - I can't tell you whether there is any disadvantage to using a 0.219" bore for a .223 Rem, that is one of the approaches for minimizing the odds of jacket failure with the 90 VLDs that I haven't tried as yet. Frank Green from Bartlein has been an advocate for using that approach, so I'd be inclined to assume he doesn't think there should be any issues with it. I have used barrels with both .299" and .300" bores in .308 Win rifles, and I can't tell any difference significant between the two in terms of velocity for a given charge weight or precision, so I wouldn't expect any huge issues.
 
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In contrast to Boisblancboy, I have had jacket failures running the 90 VLDs from a .223 Rem out of a 6.8-twist barrel at comparable velocities. They can and will fail if pushed too hard, but there also seems to be a measure of luck with regard to where the exact failure point might be with a given setup and/or Lot# of bullets. Pushing the 90 VLDs at spin rates of ~300K RPM or higher is one way to increase the risk of jacket failure.

You have to ask yourself too about how sharp a cut-off there is in this matter. That is, is there a grey area where some individual bullets are stressed, others are OK, but all still reach the target intact? If so, do the stressed examples begin to display odd behaviours on the target at long ranges? I always think of the rifling twist / bullet stability issue. For a long time most shooters said 'the holes are nice and round, so stability must be OK. Now we know that marginal stability can give reasonable groups and round holes, but moving to a higher level can give still tighter groups and/or higher effective BC values. Does marginally over-high rotation produce a similar range of invisible but still negative effects?

Like you, I simply stick to 7 twist and if I lose a little BC, so be it. (The only 224 bullets I ever blew up in many thousands of shots were some 52gn Hornady AMaxes from a well-worn Lilja 8 twist many years ago. I'd tested the load in cool conditions and it had performed very well. A day in the 80s with fouling building up in the barrel proved different. First few shots in a clean barrel fine, then the next half dozen vertically strung, then no more shots on the paper with everybody telling me when I got up that they'd disintegrated in clearly visible grey puffs about 80, 90 yards downrange. :) )
 
What would a 85.5 in a 223 using a 7.5 twist do in your opinion?
No clue, really. In my 22BR, I can run up to 30gns of IMR 4350 with the 90. With the 85.5, I maxed at 32gns and was ever so slightly compressed.

That certainly is true when you have that kind of a velocity differential, but that largely depends on the rifle setup; i.e. cartridge, barrel length, etc. In the .223 Rem, the velocity differential for tuned loads with the 85.5s and 90s should not be anywhere near that large
.

Totally agree. I was just offering my experience with the 22BR to give a little perspective. The 85.5 can be driven closer to 80gn speeds than 90gn speeds in my 22BR.
 
You have to ask yourself too about how sharp a cut-off there is in this matter. That is, is there a grey area where some individual bullets are stressed, others are OK, but all still reach the target intact? If so, do the stressed examples begin to display odd behaviours on the target at long ranges? I always think of the rifling twist / bullet stability issue. For a long time most shooters said 'the holes are nice and round, so stability must be OK. Now we know that marginal stability can give reasonable groups and round holes, but moving to a higher level can give still tighter groups and/or higher effective BC values. Does marginally over-high rotation produce a similar range of invisible but still negative effects?

Like you, I simply stick to 7 twist and if I lose a little BC, so be it. (The only 224 bullets I ever blew up in many thousands of shots were some 52gn Hornady AMaxes from a well-worn Lilja 8 twist many years ago. I'd tested the load in cool conditions and it had performed very well. A day in the 80s with fouling building up in the barrel proved different. First few shots in a clean barrel fine, then the next half dozen vertically strung, then no more shots on the paper with everybody telling me when I got up that they'd disintegrated in clearly visible grey puffs about 80, 90 yards downrange. :) )

Laurie - you raise some interesting points. In my hands, the line of demarkation between normal bullet function and jacket failure can be quite sharp. I have never lost a jacket in a 7.0-twist barrel. I have lost both 90 VLDs and 88 ELDMs in an otherwise identical (i.e. 5R, 30" finish length, same reamer specs) 6.8-twist barrel. Surprisingly, that same 6.8-twist barrel has not [yet] caused any jacket failures with 90 gr SMKs at comparable velocity with the 90 VLDs, or with 95 gr SMKs at ~2750 fps. With a load velocity of ~2850 fps, 7.0-twist and 6.8-twist barrels would be producing spin rates of of ~293K and 302K RPM, respectively.

When you talk with Berger about this issue, their apparent "red zone" with regard to bullet spin rates an jacket performance is 300K RPM. Clearly with a load using 90 VLDs over H4895 at ~2850 fps from a 30" barrel, the bullet RPM value from a 7.0-twist barrel is below 300K RPM, whereas that produced in a 6.8-twist barrel is not. I have bore-scoped that 6.8-twist barrel three ways from Sunday. If there is some innate problem with the bore itself, I cannot find it. Nonetheless, I am not able to state with certainty whether the problem lies in the barrel itself, or in the fast 6.8-twist rate. I have another apparently identical 6.8-twist barrel (both were purchased together, then chambered at the same time, by the same smith, with the same reamer). Eventually, I will use that barrel on the rifle. However, even over some period of time, any failure to observe jacket failure with the 2nd barrel is not 100% proof the problem lay within the 1st barrel/bore itself, although it is certainly suggestive of that. Further, I am not inclined to load bullets I suspect might fail, merely for test purposes, as reproducing the failures might take a while, and it's something you never want to show up in a match. My point is it may not always be easy to determine the cause of bullet jacket failures with absolute certainty. It is much simpler to make a change and hope the problem vanishes.

As I mentioned, I have never lost a bullet in a 7.0-twist barrel, so that is what I will continue to use when re-barreling my .223s in the future. If necessary, I may also consider adopting the use of 0.219" bore, although I haven't gone that far as yet. My opinion is that although Berger's Twist Rate Calculator suggests running the 90s through a 7.0-twist barrel versus a faster twist means giving up a small amount of intrinsic bullet BC, the difference is exactly that...small. So small in fact, that I don't believe anyone can actually shoot the difference. So in essence, the only thing a 7.0-twist barrel is probably giving up to a faster twist rate barrel is an increased propensity for jacket failure, IMO. I just had a couple more 7.0-twist barrels chambered for my original .223 Rem for shooting the 90s, and if anything, it is shooting even better now than it did with the original two 7-twist barrels.

I can easily envision that the dimensions (i.e. bearing surface length) of the 85.5 gr bullet might render it more resistant to jacket failure as compared to the 90 VLD. For those individuals that have effectively found the 90 VLDs to be unusable for F-TR competition due to jacket failures, I can also envision that switching to the 85.5s is a no-brainer. One fails, one doesn't - pretty easy choice, right? Nonetheless, at least in F-TR where the requirement is to use only the .223 Rem cartridge, in my mind there is no question that when properly loaded and tuned, the mighty 90 VLD is not going to allow its dominance to be questioned by any lighter weight newcomers, even its own siblings from Berger. In my hands, the 90 VLDs have always been quite easy to tune in, almost stupid-easy. I am aware that other shooters may not have always been as fortunate when using the 90 VLDs, but as long as I can load them with insanely good precision and shoot them in matches without fear of losing jackets (i.e. using a 7.0-twist barrel and/or a 0.219" bore), I can't imagine ever switching to a lighter bullet, even another Berger offering.
 
Thank you @Ned Ludd. This is a truly vexing subject! I'm looking forward to the new 85.5 reaching us in the UK. Yet something else to try. :)

It's really only vexing when you get the little bluish-white "puff" 50 to 75 yards downrange ;).


Otherwise, all I really want is to prevent it from happening again, not necessarily understand to the Nth degree what the underlying cause is, even though I do like to do that also when possible. Using no faster than a 7.0-twist barrel seems to take care of the problem in my hands, although my next set of .223 Rem barrels may also be 0.219" bore, rather than 0.218".
 
Ned Ludd,
My $.02...

My friend, Pete & I desired a few years ago to build long range .223's for shooting hopefully at 1000 yards. The choice was Berger 90gr VLD specifically set up with Robert Pitcairn's advice & article, "A Mouse On Steroids" linked elsewhere within Accurateshooter website.

We started with identical Kelbly Actions, identical 6.5" twist Brux heavy palma barrels, exact same reamer, same gunsmith, 24.5gr Varget and CCI-450 primers in Lapua brass seated into the lands as per direction.

The ammo/rifle has performed admirably for me. Pete became disgusted as his ammo would never reach the target; bullet blow-ups, jacket failures. Pete also had the same results in a 1:7 twist barrel as well chambered same. Brux examined & slugged his barrel, no problems found, no strictures in the barrel, no "sharp" lands, no 5R rifling.

The main difference between the 2 rifles was that mine is a 28" barrel and Pete's were 30". It was an accident. I didn't like trying to get the rifle to fit into specific bags & cases for transport, so I wanted the 28" barrel to simply make transportation easier.

I still shoot, and do VERY well with the same rifle/ammo combo to this day. I have never had a 90gr bullet blow up on me. Climate, locale, elevation, atmospherics have had no effect. All things being equal, It must be the chosen barrel length.
 
The main difference between the 2 rifles was that mine is a 28" barrel and Pete's were 30". It was an accident. I didn't like trying to get the rifle to fit into specific bags & cases for transport, so I wanted the 28" barrel to simply make transportation easier.

Yet I ran both Berger 90s in a 31-inch True-Flite 'Heavy Palma', the BT in the 2,860s and the VLD at no less than 2,910 fps for four years and 2,500 rounds without losing a single bullet some years ago. These included three years worth of GB national level matches primarily at 1,000 yards (and even out to 1,225 yards on the Blair Atholl Kongsberg e-targets on one occasion).
 
It very well could be the barrel length. A well-documented cause of jacket failure is due to heat from friction with the lands. The two would go hand-in-hand with a longer barrel generating more friction and heat. Nonetheless, there could be other differences between the two barrels not easy detect. To state that it must have been the length of the two different barrels is not a well-supported argument, IMO. It might have been, it might also have been something else less obvious. I have never used any barrel length other than 30". With a 7.0-twist rate barrel, I have never lost a single 90 VLD out of many, many thousands fired. However, I started losing them very quickly after switching to a 6.8-twist barrel, also 30" in length.

To know the cause in a specific case with absolute certainty is not such an easy thing to accomplish. I have spoken with quite a few individuals that have had jacket failures with the 90 VLDs in an effort to determine the most likely cause(s). The most consistent similarity between their setups has been using a barrel twist rate faster than 7.0 (i.e. - in the 6.8- to 6.5-twist range). However, there are clearly individuals that have used 6.5-twist barrels with no issues. Did those 6.5-twist barrels have a 0.219" bore? Were they 5R rifling? Or some other type? Were they 28" in length? Or 30", as seems to be most common with F-TR setups? These are all likely to be critical factors with regard to jacket failure when pushing the 90 VLD up close to the 300K RPM mark. The best I was ever able to come up with after compiling all the observations and results from a number of shooters was that certain things were likely to increase the risk significantly, a barrel twist rate faster than 7.0 being the most common factor. I can easily imagine that barrel length might be another such contributing factor, as could the rifling land/groove pattern used. I can also imagine that blowing up the 90s might require the cumulative effect of at least two or more "risk" factors, which would not necessarily all be the same between different rifles. For example, any combination of two or more risk factors might be enough, regardless of which factors they were.

Like you, I started shooting the 90 VLDs a number of years ago and used Pitcairn's "A Mouse on Steroids" as a resource. I have also done fairly well shooting the 90 VLDs in F-TR competitions from 300 to 1000 yd. My primary interest in this topic is two-fold. First off, I don't ever want to lose another jacket during a match in which I should have been competing for the win. Secondly, I don't want to spend a lot of time and money having barrels chambered that are likely to have this problem. As an example, I actually had two of the 6.8-twist barrels chambered for that particular rifle. Both had to be special-ordered from Bartlein due to the unusual twist rate. Both were also threaded for a tuner at the muzzle, meaning they cost me a lot more than an average barrel in terms of both time and money. So the real question for me is whether the 2nd 6.8-twist barrel will behave like the first one. There is no real way to know that answer because I haven't spun it on the rifle as yet. It might blow up the 90s just like the first one did. Then again, it might not. Further, the blow-ups didn't start with the first barrel until about 400 rounds down the pipe. Since the first incident that likely cost me from having at least a top 3 finish in that match, the failures have been very sporadic, with only a few failures with 90 VLDs and 88 ELDMs occurring with fairly long intervals in-between. Nonetheless, the confidence factor with that barrel is zero; I would never use it in a match at this point. I could certainly spin the other barrel on, but it might also take quite a bit of time and effort before the problem showed up, if at all. As an alternatives to the Berger 90 VLDs, I have also been testing some Sierra Matchking 90s I received from a friend that works for Sierra. I have yet to lose a jacket on one of those, suggesting that the jacket is probably thicker and/or tougher than those used by Berger. Ultimately, I would be perfectly happy to get some reasonable barrel life out of the two barrels shooting the SMK 90s. Ultimately, I will go back to using 7.0-twist 30" barrels, possibly also with a 0.219" bore configuration, merely to make it as unlikely as possible that I will ever see the jacket failure phenomena again. Once is more than enough.
 

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