Do hand gun cartridges have nodes?
- Thread starter AJC
- Start date
I would say yes only because I have a slow pet load for 9mm I have used for years and it definitely shoots better a little faster.... Maybe it's just me but it sure seems like it on the paper..... I just don't run it hotter because there's no need to bash the gun... I have found over the years that some things make a difference in pistol just like rifle... Especially a good bullet verses a not so good one etc...
Cartridges don't have nodes. Barrels have nodes. The effects of nodes on accuracy are more pronounced in longer barrels, thinner barrels, and for cartridges that tend to dump more energy into barrel vibrations.
Here's some node values for "standard" barrels in 6 and 24 inches respectively
0.223 0.253 0.27 0.301 0.316 0.349 0.363 0.397
0.816 0.894 1.022 1.101 1.228 1.308 1.434 1.515
If you have quickload, adjust your .357 powder weights by 0.1gr and see if it is a fine enough powder change to move you from one node to the next. If 0.1gr takes you from one node and skips a few nodes, then it would tell me that chasing nodes for a short barrel is probably not going to yield the results you will see on longer barrels. 0.1gr is also a larger fraction of your total charge weight than for most rifle ammunition, meaning the "normal" variation between one loaded pistol/revolver round on average would probably already be enough to skip over nodes. This is what my intuition tells me - not tested - would be really interested if someone with QL could do this quick experiment. I've always just assumed nodes for short barrels are not worth my time...
0.223 0.253 0.27 0.301 0.316 0.349 0.363 0.397
0.816 0.894 1.022 1.101 1.228 1.308 1.434 1.515
If you have quickload, adjust your .357 powder weights by 0.1gr and see if it is a fine enough powder change to move you from one node to the next. If 0.1gr takes you from one node and skips a few nodes, then it would tell me that chasing nodes for a short barrel is probably not going to yield the results you will see on longer barrels. 0.1gr is also a larger fraction of your total charge weight than for most rifle ammunition, meaning the "normal" variation between one loaded pistol/revolver round on average would probably already be enough to skip over nodes. This is what my intuition tells me - not tested - would be really interested if someone with QL could do this quick experiment. I've always just assumed nodes for short barrels are not worth my time...
I'm talking about 20 and 24" barrels in lever action rifles. Does the equation assume a free floated barrel?
No, as per previous responses- nodes are related to barrel length- nothing to do with what type of cartridge you use. I mistakenly assumed you were talking about short barrelled handgun. For your 20”+ barrel you will definitely benefit from trying to find a node.
Having said all that though- the lever actions I’ve seen typically are not free floated, and my gut would tell me that would make a difference in terms of barrel harmonics- what that difference would be and how big of sn impact it would have is beyond me- I would guess that with all else being equal, your 20” may exhibit properties more akin to a shorter barrel, which, according to my previously stated assumption about nodes on shorter barrels, would make me less and less worried about trying to find it in the first place.
... and in barrels that are totally free floated. The bench rest and rail gun guys dampen with blocks and use extremely thick barrels to make pressure just about equate to points up and down a vertical line.
It’s always perplexed me that all barrel lengths and contours like the same loads - given that we have “nodes.” 30 grains of Varget behind a 107 SMK in a 6 BR, 54.5 of 4831 SC and a 180 in a .284. 44.5 of Varget with a 200 H in Palma brass. I’m skeptical of nodes with target weight barrels, because the “node” we see in every caliber is basically just the fastest velocity that can still yield multiple uses of the brass. My buddies shooting 31 inch free floated 1.25”s and I will settle on exactly the same .284 charge even though I use tapered 36 inch barrels.
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
By the definition of accuracy windows changing with incremental powder charges - yes, pistol cartridges definitely have "nodes". At least in .45ACP, .44 Special and 9MM. Used to shoot a lot of 3-gun "bullseye" matches in the 80's and did a tremendous amount of pistol cartridge reloading. The pistols most definitely have their favorites when it comes to powder levels
I have been loading handgun rounds for years and have noted that the most accurate round is almost always the slowest or very close to it. Problem is everybody loads for power not so much accuracy anymore. Take 9mm, most loads are around 1000-1100 fps based on printed load data but if you slow that round down, sometimes so much that you have to "re-spring" the gun the accuracy will improve. Handgun self defense and/or hunting loads is where the knock-down power is needed but for punching paper where accuracy is needed try slowing down the loads. I'm currently doing extremely well shooting a 357mag revolver with old school 38 spl. loads that average 730fps.
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