Brass Won't Chamber - Perplexed

[searcher]

Maybe buy one of those devices you drop a loaded round into to ensure it fits "specs". If it drops in and is flush or below flush - you know the problem is not likely your dies or press - but rather your rifle.

 

[Texas10]

That is okay, but you still are not saying how much the shellholder or die is compressing, after they touch. One or both have to compress to get anymore movement out of or into the die with the cartridge.

Camover is the term used to describe a condition where the ram and shell holder has come to a stop against the die and further exertion on the press handle takes up all the slop in the pivot points, then begins to stretch the pivot pins and arms. Once the ram has hit top dead center and then overtravels a bit beyond TDC, the press operator feels the press wanting to springboard off TDC towards the hard stop point. The brass case has nothing to do this as it is a steel on steel event.

Reversing the press handle the press operator feels the same springiness as the cam goes over TDC.

If your brass is not resized enough to chamber properly following this method, several things can be the cause.

Sizing die does not fully size the brass nearest the base. In that case a small base sizing die may be necessary. Your chamber may be on the minimum side of spec.

Headspace was set too close to or beyond max when the barrel was installed. Will the bolt close on a no-go gage ?

Are you setting the shoulder back enough? How do you measure it?

Are you trimming the brass to SAAMI specs?

I hope this helps.

 

[Carryacolt]

Copperking 81

I'm battling a similar problem. I too, have been trying to find why my fired brass does not fit properly.
I use the hornady oal guage with the "headspace attachment" to get the headspace reference number.
I have three pieces of brass that reads the very same number, and only one will chamber easily and the two remaining are hard to close the bolt.

Here's the problem. If I rotate the brass 45 degrees at a time, there's a spot that the bolt will almost "fall shut". I've removed the firing pin assembly and use the bolt "empty" to check the brass function fit.
My rifle is a factory Winchester M-70 Coyote 243 WSSM.
Your post here is the closest similar problem I've been able to find.

 

[Carryacolt]

Have you found a solution to your problem?

 

[Alguapo]

Had this same issue shooting 2 different 20 Practicals. Solution was a small base die ( brass fit into both rifles after resizing) then separate the brass by rifle. Problem solved.

 

[Webster]

I'm having issues chambering resized brass out of my pre-64 M70 .220 Swift and cannot narrow down the cause.

I had reloaded once fired Hornady brass and noticed while at the range, some of them would not chamber in my M70. I figured I didn't have my FL sizing die turned down far enough. I did fire the rounds out of another .220 Swift later. I then cleaned the brass, ran a few through the FL sizing die, measured headspace with a comparator, and proceeded to test. They would not chamber. I then incrementally started to turn the die down to the point where I can no longer turn it down and still get cam over. Still will not chamber.

Fortunately, I was able to find a piece brass that was 1x fired and would chamber easily in the rifle. I proceeded to take measurements of that case and the other cases I had used to test that would not chamber.

Good Case

• Headspace = 1.728
• Case length = 2.196
• Case width at base= 0.442
• Case width at mid point = 0.425
• Case width just below neck = 0.405

Bad case

• Headspace = Started at 1.728, took it all the way down to 1.722
• Case length = 2.196
• Case width at base= 0.440
• Case width at mid point = 0.425
• Case width just below neck = 0.404

In every way I measured, it seems the bad case is smaller so I cannot figure out why it won't chamber but the other case will.

I'm guessing it might have something to do with the brass having been fired out of two different rifles but considering all the brass went through the FL die anyway, I'd think it would get it consistent. Both the good and bad cases all chamber in the other rifle, which is a Ruger No1.

What am I missing!?!?

I have a 6BR and a 6BRX. I cannot chamber brass fired in my 6BR in the 6BRX to FF. New out of the box Lapua 6BR brass does chamber in the 6BRX. My gun smith is one of the best in the country. They told me regardless of the name on the reamer spec. they are not all identical.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Maybe buy one of those devices you drop a loaded round into to ensure it fits "specs". If it drops in and is flush or below flush - you know the problem is not likely your dies or press - but rather your rifle.

Chambers and dies vary in size, as an example I have a Lee FL .223 die that will reduce the case diameter more than my RCBS small base die. Case gauges also vary in size and vary in diameter with most having a larger diameter than the rifle's chamber.

Below is a once fired lake City 7.62 case that was fired in a military chamber in a Dillon case gauge. And the case diameter is keeping the case from dropping all the way into the gauge. And the problem with this type of gauge is the gauge will not tell you the fired location of the case shoulder. And only tells you the resized case shoulder location and does not tell you how much the shoulder was pushed back.

Below is the same fired 7.62 case in a JP Enterprise case gauge and its inside diameter is at minimum SAAMI chamber dimensions. Meaning if the resized case drops all the way into this gauge the reloaded case will chamber in any rifle in relation to its diameter.

And some case gauges are worthless, below is a brand new British .303 case in a Wilson case gauge. This shows you how short the shoulder location can be on new rimmed and belted cases.

And below a fired case in the Wilson case gauge showing how much further forward the shoulder of the chamber is than SAAMI maximum. This case is resting on its shoulder and the case diameter is not preventing the case from going all the way into the gauge.

And if you want to accurately measure "fired" and resized cases and know how far the shoulder is bumped back then get a Hornady case gauge like below.

 

[copperking81]

I've gotten several PMs from interested folks on where I'm at with this....

Unfortunately, not much to report. I've been busy with work and my club range has been booked up on the weekends with matches, which has precluded testing, so I'm in a bit of a holding pattern. I'll try some of the suggestions offered this weekend and report any interesting findings.

I think it's cool that there's interest in seeing how this plays out so... I'll try and do a better job updating the thread. Just hasn't been much movement on my part since last post

 

[divingin]

Would someone explain this Camming over ? If your Shellholder is touching the bottom of the die, how can you cause any further reach by camming your ram/linkage any further, all you are doing is putting strain on the ram/linkage, are you not ?

A reloading press stretches when you put force on it. If you adjust your die to just touch the shellholder at the ram's highest point, when you run a case into the die, you'll now have a gap between the die and shellholder. To get to the die's full sizing potential, you have to have a bit more contact than touching with no load. After setting the die down a bit more, with no load, you'll feel resistance as the ram nears the top, then it "cams over" and that resistance eases. You'll feel it again as you lower the ram (due to the die's length stretching the press.) You're at full sizing capability when you run an unsized piece of brass into the die, and you maintain contact between die and shellholder at the top of the stroke.

 

[searcher]

Has been a while since I used a case gauge, though they can truly be indispensable when having problems with a die and not sure what is up with your chamber or die not sizing as it "should". Seems most problems with chambering come from a case being too large in a particular dimension. If you drop your round in an inexpensive case gauge and it drops flush or below - and is still difficult to chamber - it readily tells you that you may have an issue with a chamber that is not within SAMMI spec., and you can then evaluate what to do next - such as a chamber cast to determine if that is the case. I have seen a lot of brass get tweaked out of specs by using too small of a neck sizing bushing and the shoulder pushes back when seating the bullet. sometimes this is not apparent until trying to chamber the round. That same problem can be exacerbated when not inside chamfering the necks enough and using flat-based bullets or after annealing at too hot of a temperature which overly softens the brass, allowing the shoulder to move when seating. I have done all of those things over the years and I have never found my chambers to be bad - just my inattention to loading detail. It was interesting to have done the chamber casts just to see what I had though.

 

[338 dude]

I think I see a bulge, look just outside the red box, top right, in your picture. It could just be an optical illusion. Just brain storming here.

Jim

Good Eye I think I see it to

 

[Uncle Ed]

I'm having issues chambering resized brass out of my pre-64 M70 .220 Swift and cannot narrow down the cause.

I had reloaded once fired Hornady brass and noticed while at the range, some of them would not chamber in my M70. I figured I didn't have my FL sizing die turned down far enough. I did fire the rounds out of another .220 Swift later. I then cleaned the brass, ran a few through the FL sizing die, measured headspace with a comparator, and proceeded to test. They would not chamber. I then incrementally started to turn the die down to the point where I can no longer turn it down and still get cam over. Still will not chamber.



I'm guessing it might have something to do with the brass having been fired out of two different rifles but considering all the brass went through the FL die anyway, I'd think it would get it consistent. Both the good and bad cases all chamber in the other rifle, which is a Ruger No1.

What am I missing!?!?

The cases were fired in another chamber and you might be dealing with brass spring back "after" sizing.

Resize the problem cases again and at the top of the ram stroke leave the cases in the die for 4 or 5 seconds. Leaving the cases in the die for 4 or 5 seconds will reduce the amount of spring back after sizing.

I buy bulk once fired Lake City 5.56 and 7.62 brass fired in a multitude of military chambers. All these cases are sized with a small base die with a minimum of .003 shoulder bump to bring them back to minimum SAAMI dimensions. Before getting my small base dies and using a standard sizing die and pausing at the top of the ram stroke I had good results. "BUT" there were still a few cases that chambered hard.

Any time you use cases fired in another chamber you can run into problems because they were fire formed for that chamber. And when you pause at the top of the ram stroke you are telling the brass to stay put and reduce the amount of spring back.

Below an example of Forster .308 sizing dies.

 

[hillbillydruggist]

Maybe buy one of those devices you drop a loaded round into to ensure it fits "specs". If it drops in and is flush or below flush - you know the problem is not likely your dies or press - but rather your rifle.

that is the 1st piece of reloading equipment i buy when trying a new cartridge

 

[tom k]

the best tool I have found to set head space and to set up your sizing die is redding instant indicator .

 

[KY_Windage]

First, make sure your chamber is CLEAN. LOOK at it with a flashlight.

Then use fired brass of different lengths and find the length at which your bolt just closes with no more resistance than when closing empty. Measure that case with the Hornady Case Gauge like Uncle E pictured. Don't let a proud primer give you a false dimension (stay off of it). That is your (tentative) Maximum Case Length. I then FL resize so that I set the shoulder about .003 shorter than max, but YMMV. I prime then, too.

Then drop each case in a Wilson gage to see if the neck is too long (needs to be trimmed). If so, trim. That will vary from rifle to rifle, but usually if you trim to flush with the Wilson you will be fine.

Then, to be sure you got it right, seat a bullet WITH NO POWDER in one of those tentatively perfect cases and make sure it chambers without having to apply force on the bolt. That is also a good time to find or verify your bullet seating depth.

I say NO POWDER in case your rifling should trap your bullet, which would spill powder all in your chamber. (You wanna talk about a hard bolt close! )

You may have resistance with a bullet seated that you did not with the empty case because the bullet swells the neck. If you do, shorten the neck and try again with a seated bullet. If it is still hard to close then you know you needed to set your shoulder back farther (and go back to normal neck length).

So, set the shoulder back another .002 or .003, seat again and check again. (I have at times had to ground a bit of the bottom off the FL die to be able to set the shoulder back where I wanted it, but I don't care because I am not using the die to "cam" -- I just push the case all the way into the die.

Now take the dummy cartridge(s) you created apart to make sure you never try to fire it and unwittingly create a barrel obstruction BOMB when the primer pushes the bullet out.

Now you have made sure you do not have either of the common problems that will make it hard to close on a case -- neck too long or case too long at the shoulder (headspace).

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

If you are shooting a AR type weapon, you must remember that the rear of the case, does not seat all the way into the chamber and is much like a Glock pistol. Use a RCBS Small Base die and follow their instructions. Testing the fit with a case gauge, the case should drop in and be slightly loose and the rear edge of the case should be perfectly flat, while all the way into the gauge.

I will go so far as to guarantee you will have no chamber problems with the small base die..

 

[Iowa Fox]

remember- case gages and chamber checkers are two different tools.

 

[Rich Lee]

This is a problem that pops up periodically, brass fired in one rifle and even after resizing won't fire in another rifle. Solution? Stick with brass shot in each individual rifle.

I personaly do not ever shoot brass from one rifle in another rifle. I buy new brass and load it for one gun and never change . Seems to work well that way.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

I had a Winchester model 70 once that had the head space set too short and no matter how far the dies was run down you could not resize it small enough to fit the gun. That is no easy fix on a shouldered barrel set too deep which is why I own Savage rifles now, I can adjust them as needed.

 

[Uncle Ed]

I had a Winchester model 70 once that had the head space set too short and no matter how far the dies was run down you could not resize it small enough to fit the gun. That is no easy fix on a shouldered barrel set too deep which is why I own Savage rifles now, I can adjust them as needed.

All you needed to do was lap a shell holder on wet and dry sandpaper removing a few thousandths at a time until the case would chamber.

In Savage forums, they have the same problem, they use a new case and put scotch tape on its base as a headspace gauge They set the headspace and their next post is "Help my resized cases will not chamber". This happens in the Brotherhood of the barrel nut" all the time and I own two Savage rifles.

Below I played with my bolt head until I nearly went blind, but now I know headspace is also the distance between your ears.