Can someone please explain, in layman’s terms, how .22 ammo that doesn’t group so well at fifty yards shoots better at 100 than the brand that is better at the closer distance? This doesn’t make any sense to me. Is this commonplace, that different ammo brands are more accurate at different distances? Thanks, for your insights.
Differences at 50 & 100 yds.
- Thread starter Topwater
- Start date
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
I do not have first hand experience, but I would expect the harmonics to be considerably different. Between the brands if the velocity is different, then so is the barrel time which means the bullets exit at a different point as the barrel is vibrating vertically. The effect would depend greatly on the barrel.
Shots do not diverge to 50 yards and then start to converge inward, with low shot bending upward, high shots bending down, shots to the right bending left and shots to the left bending to the right between 50 and 100 yards. Groups only get larger with distance.
^ This..
If one set of ammo is subsonic and the other super sonic, I think it can happen. If the supersonic bullet losses enough speed to drop through the sound barrier it could get stability issues and make a bigger group at the longer range. Many long range 22 shooters prefer to start slower with subsonic ammo and not drop through the sound barrier.
jds holler
Gold $$ Contributor
Well guys they see this every day at the Lapua test center...My personal V22 Vudoo rifle was sent in April of 2019 to the Lapua test center. 14 lots were tested, I personally shoot more events with targets ranging from 75 to 350 yards. My focus was on ammo that performed better at the max of the test center...109 yards or 100 meters. There were a number of lots that performed very well at 50 and not well at 100m. Well the lot I got worked ok at 50m and lights out at 100m. It was 4th or 5th on the list of performers at 50m. So is it possible, yes this rimfire where all the crazy stuff is seen! I am not just a random plinker guy. I only have 500 of the 10k of centerX left 
Plus I am down about 5k in SK also! Try shooting SK long range...GROUPS LIKE CRAP AT 50! Run great past 100!
Plus I am down about 5k in SK also! Try shooting SK long range...GROUPS LIKE CRAP AT 50! Run great past 100!I am fairly new to “long range” .22 shooting. In excess of fifty years ago, I shot competitively indoors. Since becoming sucked into this new discipline, it was suggested that I try several brands of ammunition to find which my rifle ( old Savage Anschutz 164 Sporter ) prefered. I bought six different boxes that were of varying prices. If I remember correctly, the most expensive was Lapua Center X. I also had two old bricks of Winchester T22 leftover from competition days.
We set up at 50 yds. and shot the different brands, Federal, Eley, SK and others which I don’t recall. We then stretched out to 100 and shot again. It seemed to both of us that some of the more expensive ammo grouped nicely at 50. The T22 didn’t print quite as well. When we moved out to 100, the T22 appeared to both of us to group the best of all. I don’t understand why. I thought someone might have experienced a similar situation and could suggest a cause.
The fellow who was shooting with me has suggested that it may have something to do with differing velocities. I have yet to try any .22s through my chronograph. Could this have any bearing on accuracy. I’m stumped. There may be something very simple that I am overlooking.
Here’s another kick in the butt. I purchased a CZ 457 MTR, installed a 24 X scope, Harrell tuner and adjusted the trigger down as far as I am comfortable with. It has yet to outshoot the old Anschutz. There’s much more to this game than appears on the surface.
We set up at 50 yds. and shot the different brands, Federal, Eley, SK and others which I don’t recall. We then stretched out to 100 and shot again. It seemed to both of us that some of the more expensive ammo grouped nicely at 50. The T22 didn’t print quite as well. When we moved out to 100, the T22 appeared to both of us to group the best of all. I don’t understand why. I thought someone might have experienced a similar situation and could suggest a cause.
The fellow who was shooting with me has suggested that it may have something to do with differing velocities. I have yet to try any .22s through my chronograph. Could this have any bearing on accuracy. I’m stumped. There may be something very simple that I am overlooking.
Here’s another kick in the butt. I purchased a CZ 457 MTR, installed a 24 X scope, Harrell tuner and adjusted the trigger down as far as I am comfortable with. It has yet to outshoot the old Anschutz. There’s much more to this game than appears on the surface.
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
Go to Varmint Al website and read up on the barrel harmonics studies and you will begin to get a feel for what is going on. For center-fire the powder charge can be adjusted to time the bullets exit when the barrel is pointing in the optimum position. Since this is not an option in rimfire you are constrained to trying different ammo to achieve the same effect.
I think guys are starting to mix apples and oranges. The question isn’t whether one brand will shoot better at one range than another. Or whether a certain brand will shoot ok at close range than really good at a further range. Both those things are well established.
The questions is, can a particular group be larger at one point close up - let’s just say for arguments sake 50 M - than it is further along at say 100?
I don’t see how that is possible. As was pointed out, bullets traveling away from each other do not just magically pull themselves back together again after traveling even further. The laws of physics just aren’t there.
The further those bullets travel, the further apart they will get. Yes a certain lot of ammo can shoot what is considered a mediocre group at fifty, but then group what is considered an excellent group at say 200. That is because the standard for what is considered a group at fifty is much more stringent. But that doesn’t mean the group was smaller at the 200 than it was at 50. The smaller group is still closer and the larger is still farther. Regardless of whether it is considered good or bad.
The 200 yard group is still going to be exponentially larger than it was at 50. It just didn’t get as big as expected because the bullets stayed stable in flight, kept a more stable velocity, and didn't spread as much as maybe one that was very tight at close range, but then fell apart as it traveled along lost velocity, and became unstable. See the difference?
The questions is, can a particular group be larger at one point close up - let’s just say for arguments sake 50 M - than it is further along at say 100?
I don’t see how that is possible. As was pointed out, bullets traveling away from each other do not just magically pull themselves back together again after traveling even further. The laws of physics just aren’t there.
The further those bullets travel, the further apart they will get. Yes a certain lot of ammo can shoot what is considered a mediocre group at fifty, but then group what is considered an excellent group at say 200. That is because the standard for what is considered a group at fifty is much more stringent. But that doesn’t mean the group was smaller at the 200 than it was at 50. The smaller group is still closer and the larger is still farther. Regardless of whether it is considered good or bad.
The 200 yard group is still going to be exponentially larger than it was at 50. It just didn’t get as big as expected because the bullets stayed stable in flight, kept a more stable velocity, and didn't spread as much as maybe one that was very tight at close range, but then fell apart as it traveled along lost velocity, and became unstable. See the difference?
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I have absolutely seen this happen. I cannot explain why but I have tested many lots of ammo and have found certain lots that group the best at 100 yds are not always the best at 50yds. Note however that this observation was made with a relatively low statistical sample (30+/- shots).....
First, I am a little confused by your first paragraph. Did you intend the opposite (long range groups smaller than short range?). Am I missing something in translation?
Moving forward....
Can a lot of ammunition perform better at a longer range than at a shorter range?
Yes.
Is it common?
No.
I have experienced this a total of thee times in testing match grade ammunition over 35 years.
As a prone shooter, I start testing lots at 100 yards and then work back to 50m. In each instance, the best lot at 100 was good - but not exceptional -at 50m. Usable, but not anywhere as good as others at 50. (In all three instances, the 100 yd performance was exceptional in both calm and breezy conditions.)
My thoughts on this phenomenon are that there can be combinations that may delay full stabilization at 50 vs the 100 yd line. There are many variations now of bullet shapes, lube, chambers, rifling twist, land count, etc. that can influence overall performance.
As an aside, the test results at the different distances were duplicated in more than 1 occasion as I strive to test at least on 2 separate days. Was there a huge statistical sample - no - only about 50 to 100 rounds per lot.
To me, it is something that few believe until they experience it first hand. It’s really not a big issue for shooters that test their lots at all distances that they plan to compete at.... If it does not shoot to the expected criteria, they move on to one that is better.
Regards,
Ken
Ken,
Yes, I think you did loose quite a bit in the translation. Probably my fault for not explaining it clearly enough.
Again, it’s not a matter of whether a group can be mediocre close up and fantastic further out. Yes, that can and often does happen for the reasons I stated.
The question is can a group of the same bullets fired from a gun be smaller Further out than it was close in.
I can think of a scenario where that can happen but it would confuse things even more and is probably so statistically unlikely that it is akin to winning the lottery or hitting the jackpot at Vegas.
slobhunter2
Silver $$ Contributor
This right here is what I believe is the answer.
Enough speculation from the great unwashed and inarticulate. It is a simple reproducible fact that 2 clicks on a Harrell tuner , on a Suhl 26” barrel, is the difference between the Tune at 50 and 100 yds this setup has Positive Compensation. A 22 with no positive compensation can shoot well but is wholly dependent on low sd/es ammo over a range of temperatures, a sparkle-farting unicorn. Naysayers: kindly refer to Varmint Al’s work. Seymour
slobhunter2
Silver $$ Contributor
Seymour, Are you calling me unwashed and inarticulate?
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