Action Advice
- Thread starter Eraser
- Start date
Both essentially perform the same functions, one is just higher quality and has a lot more features.
The Bighorn is a lot more feature rich then the Rem 700: CRF, integral recoil lug, DLC finish, changeable bolt heads, action threads are made to such tight tolerances that shouldered pre-fit barrels are available (also takes Savage small shank barrel nut threads), etc.
A Yugo and a Mercedes will both get you from point A to point B, one does it in much more comfort, quality and options.
Personally, I would take the Bighorn. But only you can decide what is the better option for yourself, and only you can decide if the increase in cost is worth the quality and features you are getting in return.
The Bighorn is a lot more feature rich then the Rem 700: CRF, integral recoil lug, DLC finish, changeable bolt heads, action threads are made to such tight tolerances that shouldered pre-fit barrels are available (also takes Savage small shank barrel nut threads), etc.
A Yugo and a Mercedes will both get you from point A to point B, one does it in much more comfort, quality and options.
Personally, I would take the Bighorn. But only you can decide what is the better option for yourself, and only you can decide if the increase in cost is worth the quality and features you are getting in return.
I think the Trued Rem 700 will shoot fine for you. I've got factory 700's that shoot great, but why I own a Bighorn TL3 is the other features.
I live being able to pick up cheap Savage Prefits - used ones especially, just to try out different calibers. I have more than a half dozen barrels for my TL3 and bolt heads to match.
I purchased a new TL3 from Brownells after Thanksgiving and with the coatings that the currently have on those actions it came to me as slick as my other TL3 with several thousand rounds and several thousand dry fire manipulations.
For my purposes I like the TL3 better than the Origin. The origin has a notably higher cocking force required since it moves the firing pin back further (for more reliable ignition). I use my TL3 for NRA highpower and when I'm shooting rapids or slow prone the ease of the bolt lift on the TL3 disturbs the gun less. If you are shooting F-Class this may be important to you as well.
Good Luck,
Ross
I live being able to pick up cheap Savage Prefits - used ones especially, just to try out different calibers. I have more than a half dozen barrels for my TL3 and bolt heads to match.
I purchased a new TL3 from Brownells after Thanksgiving and with the coatings that the currently have on those actions it came to me as slick as my other TL3 with several thousand rounds and several thousand dry fire manipulations.
For my purposes I like the TL3 better than the Origin. The origin has a notably higher cocking force required since it moves the firing pin back further (for more reliable ignition). I use my TL3 for NRA highpower and when I'm shooting rapids or slow prone the ease of the bolt lift on the TL3 disturbs the gun less. If you are shooting F-Class this may be important to you as well.
Good Luck,
Ross
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
You ask an interesting question. I've been thinking about having an F-TR rifle built around a trued/blueprinted Remy 700 action from PTG for some time, just as a demonstration that it can be done. In the estimates I have come up with that also include a reasonably-priced stock and trigger, I believe you could have a competitive F-TR rifle built around a trued Remy 700 action for around $1800, not including glass. PTG also sells a single shot-follower for their Remy 700 actions:
http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/14607--000-remington-700-rh-short-action-blueprinted.html
If you decide to go the Bighorn route, I'd also suggest taking a look at a Defiance Deviant, which is only slightly more expensive. I have two GAP-built .223 Rem F-TR rifles built around the Defiance Templar V2 action, which is basically a Deviant with GAP's name engraved on it. I went with the single-shot and coned bolt face options, which I find worthwhile features in a dedicated F-TR rifle. Anyone that thinks you can't be competitive in F-TR with a .223 Rem and heavy (80-90 gr) bullets is misinformed, especially in midrange competitions at 300 to 600 yd. A .223 Rem loaded with Berger 90 VLDs can be very competitive in the right hands.
Regardless of the action you choose, there are a few features you'll want to optimize the performance of the .223 Rem with heavy bullets. I'd suggest a 30" barrel, which will allow you to generate reasonable velocity at an operating pressure that won't kill the brass in one or two firings. PTG makes a reamer that was specifically designed for the Berger 90 VLD bullet (223 Rem ISSF reamer).
http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/22-c...amer.html?search_query=223+Rem+issf&results=1
This reamer cuts a chamber with 0.169" freebore, which is necessary to load the long 80-90 gr bullets optimally. Although designed with the 90 VLD in mind, this reamer will also work quite well with the Berger 80.5 Fullbore and 85.5 gr Hybrid bullets, any of which are viable options for F-TR. It will also work well with bullets in a similar weight range from other manufacturers such as Sierra's 80 and 90 gr SMKs. IMO, the ISSF reamer DOES NOT cut sufficient freebore for Hornady's 88 gr ELDM bullet, which requires something more like .220" to .250" freebore for optimal seating. The problem with setting up a rifle specifically to accomodate the 88's long bearing surface is that you may lose the ability to seat shorter bullets in the 80 gr weight range optimally. Personally, I'd go with the ISSF reamer and 90 VLDs and never look back. If you do some searches here in the "Small Stuff" section, you'll find a lot of useful information posted by myself and several others over the last few years regarding specific rifle setups and load development with 80-90 gr bullets in the .223 Rem for use in F-TR.
http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/14607--000-remington-700-rh-short-action-blueprinted.html
If you decide to go the Bighorn route, I'd also suggest taking a look at a Defiance Deviant, which is only slightly more expensive. I have two GAP-built .223 Rem F-TR rifles built around the Defiance Templar V2 action, which is basically a Deviant with GAP's name engraved on it. I went with the single-shot and coned bolt face options, which I find worthwhile features in a dedicated F-TR rifle. Anyone that thinks you can't be competitive in F-TR with a .223 Rem and heavy (80-90 gr) bullets is misinformed, especially in midrange competitions at 300 to 600 yd. A .223 Rem loaded with Berger 90 VLDs can be very competitive in the right hands.
Regardless of the action you choose, there are a few features you'll want to optimize the performance of the .223 Rem with heavy bullets. I'd suggest a 30" barrel, which will allow you to generate reasonable velocity at an operating pressure that won't kill the brass in one or two firings. PTG makes a reamer that was specifically designed for the Berger 90 VLD bullet (223 Rem ISSF reamer).
http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/22-c...amer.html?search_query=223+Rem+issf&results=1
This reamer cuts a chamber with 0.169" freebore, which is necessary to load the long 80-90 gr bullets optimally. Although designed with the 90 VLD in mind, this reamer will also work quite well with the Berger 80.5 Fullbore and 85.5 gr Hybrid bullets, any of which are viable options for F-TR. It will also work well with bullets in a similar weight range from other manufacturers such as Sierra's 80 and 90 gr SMKs. IMO, the ISSF reamer DOES NOT cut sufficient freebore for Hornady's 88 gr ELDM bullet, which requires something more like .220" to .250" freebore for optimal seating. The problem with setting up a rifle specifically to accomodate the 88's long bearing surface is that you may lose the ability to seat shorter bullets in the 80 gr weight range optimally. Personally, I'd go with the ISSF reamer and 90 VLDs and never look back. If you do some searches here in the "Small Stuff" section, you'll find a lot of useful information posted by myself and several others over the last few years regarding specific rifle setups and load development with 80-90 gr bullets in the .223 Rem for use in F-TR.
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Greg,
Barrel prices and chambering costs aren't that far apart from any of the suppliers that one would use. What stock are you using in your estimate?
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Fred - Happy New Year, my friend! Hope all is going well!
I looked at several different stocks in the price estimate I made; I don't recall all of them. The one I liked the most, which was also the least expensive, was from Stocky's. It was a laminate stock with an aluminum V-block set up specifically for a Remy 700 action. IMO - the barrel is where most of the "important stuff" takes place. Sure, the action needs to be trued and properly bedded, but without a quality barrel, the best action on the planet could be a dud. So my thought was to start with a trued/blueprinted PTG action, which seem to go on sale from time to time, and also come with a trigger. As you know, the action can be a sizable chunk of the cost of a new rifle build, and even the price of different custom actions can vary by several hundred dollars. I would then add the appropriate contour Bartlein or Krieger barrel. As you noted, gunsmithing work all depends on who does it, and won't change much regardless of the cost of the components.
Happy New year to you too Greg!
Yes, the barrel. Just had Dave Bruno screw a Brux 308 in one of my hunting rifles. I'll have more of those. Had a Bartlein 5R stuck into another Sporter last year. It's good too. Will talk to you soon. Lots to chat about.
Get a used Tikka.
It is mostly for fun and the fact I have a lot of .223 stuff left over from my AR days. I have a .308 and 6mm BR in Savage F class stocks I could use, just wanted to try the .223
Longtrain
Gold $$ Contributor
I have a Remington 40-X single shot action on my Dasher, it is excellent, I have no regrets on building on that platform. However, two of my shooting buddies have F Class guns built on Borden Actions, those actions are slick as grass through a goose, impressive workmanship for sure. Am I jealous, naw, especially when I beat them. 
I do have a Tikka 595 that is one of the smoothest factory actions I have ever shot. That one's never for sale.
I do have a Tikka 595 that is one of the smoothest factory actions I have ever shot. That one's never for sale.
Lots of great advice in this thread. I have exchanged several PMs with Ned and happen to know that he is a multiple and current state champion F-T/R shooter and huge proponent of the .223. As to the questions of action, it is important to note that the NSS action is only partially trued. The action face has been squared and some lapping compound was applied to the bolt lugs but nothing has been done to true the threads or bolt face. I'd call that about 33% to 50% trued. Please know that I am a satisfied NSS customer and have purchased several 'trued' Remington actions from them as well as a few Remage barrels -- all of which have shot along a spectrum from good to amazing. I am sure that I will purchase more in the future.
My opinion is this: if you are committed to shooting competition, you should remove as many variables as you can afford. I don't mean to make this about money but you are likely going to end up a few expensive bipods, numerous rear bag$ and other support equipment. In the long run, you'll save money by purchasing the gear that you are ultimately going to end up with from the outset.
For those with lathes and the skill and tooling, the Remington action can be made just as accurate as the most expensive actions but for those of us who don't have that access/skill paying someone else to do it makes less sense and the resell value is generally going to be lower to significantly lower.
There are other potential advantages to custom actions like the possibility of having barrels fit without having to send the action to the gunsmith (this is probably not a great idea). Integral recoil lugs are nice as are built in or pinned scope rails.
As long as you are looking at custom actions, take a look at the Stolle Panda. It is light, has a giant flat bottom for great bedding and torque control and has all the features you might be interested in for a focused F-T/R action.
You are at the beginning of a fun path with a lot of great options. Have fun!
Henryrifle
My opinion is this: if you are committed to shooting competition, you should remove as many variables as you can afford. I don't mean to make this about money but you are likely going to end up a few expensive bipods, numerous rear bag$ and other support equipment. In the long run, you'll save money by purchasing the gear that you are ultimately going to end up with from the outset.
For those with lathes and the skill and tooling, the Remington action can be made just as accurate as the most expensive actions but for those of us who don't have that access/skill paying someone else to do it makes less sense and the resell value is generally going to be lower to significantly lower.
There are other potential advantages to custom actions like the possibility of having barrels fit without having to send the action to the gunsmith (this is probably not a great idea). Integral recoil lugs are nice as are built in or pinned scope rails.
As long as you are looking at custom actions, take a look at the Stolle Panda. It is light, has a giant flat bottom for great bedding and torque control and has all the features you might be interested in for a focused F-T/R action.
You are at the beginning of a fun path with a lot of great options. Have fun!
Henryrifle
Fullbore308
Silver $$ Contributor
I compete with 308 in FTR mid and long range using a setup with Remington trued single shot action and enjoy every part of it.
I was wanting something in the 223 so I could practice and use in just midrange. Also have something that my wife could practice and shoot along side of me during midrange matches.
So, I shopped with NSS back in Nov and Dec. Great shopping experience
-Bighorn Origin action with 223 bolt head (NSS and Bighorn has answered every question I've asked and are willing to help)
-shilen 28" VLD match barrel with machine nut
- and Couple tools for barrel installation
Picked up a MPA hybrid chassis, jewell, vortex rings and golden eagle, mkm single load mag sled and joypod.
This thing will shoot, piled up some 80's at 300 yards.
Going to try the 85.5 Berger
Just keeping this at 300, 500 and 600 , fun gun
It also gives me options for my wife as she learns the midrange to switch over to any short action cartridge for fclass.
good luck with your choosing, have fun, thx
I was wanting something in the 223 so I could practice and use in just midrange. Also have something that my wife could practice and shoot along side of me during midrange matches.
So, I shopped with NSS back in Nov and Dec. Great shopping experience
-Bighorn Origin action with 223 bolt head (NSS and Bighorn has answered every question I've asked and are willing to help)
-shilen 28" VLD match barrel with machine nut
- and Couple tools for barrel installation
Picked up a MPA hybrid chassis, jewell, vortex rings and golden eagle, mkm single load mag sled and joypod.
This thing will shoot, piled up some 80's at 300 yards.
Going to try the 85.5 Berger
Just keeping this at 300, 500 and 600 , fun gun
It also gives me options for my wife as she learns the midrange to switch over to any short action cartridge for fclass.
good luck with your choosing, have fun, thx
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I have built a few guns over the years using quality gunsmiths and parts, and I have learned some lessons. It will always cost more than you originally planned, and chasing accuracy can get expensive as you attempt to eliminate the variables.
My observations - I have trued Rem 700's that shoot .10's and it absolutely can be done as others have proven. What I have come to realize is that by time I get the Rem 7000 action setup the way I want it (100% trued, bolt knob upgrade, steel scope rail, replace firing pin, and either polished or cerakoted the action) I am within a couple hundred bucks of a full custom receiver that is perfect right out of the box. If you plan to compete you will spend 10-20 hours just developing the right load for the gun... when you take into account the amount of time you will invest then suddenly the extra $200 in receiver is money well spent.
Beside the Bighorn action, I would look hard at the Deviant, Bat, or even Borden (left load port, right eject port... very sexy) custom actions.
If you are just building a fun plinker then use whatever you like. You may not want or need all the bells and whistles until the itch sets in after a couple of matches and then you go build your second "serious" rifle... this has happened to us all... ask my wife!
My observations - I have trued Rem 700's that shoot .10's and it absolutely can be done as others have proven. What I have come to realize is that by time I get the Rem 7000 action setup the way I want it (100% trued, bolt knob upgrade, steel scope rail, replace firing pin, and either polished or cerakoted the action) I am within a couple hundred bucks of a full custom receiver that is perfect right out of the box. If you plan to compete you will spend 10-20 hours just developing the right load for the gun... when you take into account the amount of time you will invest then suddenly the extra $200 in receiver is money well spent.
Beside the Bighorn action, I would look hard at the Deviant, Bat, or even Borden (left load port, right eject port... very sexy) custom actions.
If you are just building a fun plinker then use whatever you like. You may not want or need all the bells and whistles until the itch sets in after a couple of matches and then you go build your second "serious" rifle... this has happened to us all... ask my wife!
https://www.whiddengunworks.com/product/barnard-model-s-action-2/
Just get a Barnard S no better action out there
Just get a Barnard S no better action out there
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