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Hard carbon, solvents, and benefit of a bore scope

Flitz bore cleaner is really good, and I have only used it on patches. I have a small fortune invested in cleaning equipment and products, of which most are minimal at best. Guys say this or that they have excellent results with this or that with no back ground of case involved, # of grains of powder used, number of shots fired, Shot string length, etc.

Flitz, Issio, JB, are all mild abrasives, so care should be taken with the use of Bore guides with insert that centers rod in the bore....throats do wear from cleaning rod wear.

It would be very interesting to have some guys that shoot 338 Lapua cases and 50 BMG in competitions to chime in and learn their cleaning methods. I am sure that cleaning a 338 Lapua is very different than cleaning a 6 Dasher, 6 PPC or 223.

A friend has a couple of .338 Lapuas and I have helped him work up loads at the range and made sure that he bought the best cleaning equipment and knew how to properly use it. His barrels are of the highest quality lapped stainless, with very high quality custom gunsmithing. He does not have copper issues with any of his rifles, including the .338s which he typically loads with 250 grain bullets, Retumbo, and 215s. Cleaning is not a particular problem. Standard materials and practices work just fine.
 
View attachment 1145542

I bought a special jag from Brownells that is threaded on the end to allow you to screw on some felt plugs that you apply the JB to and then scrub the barrel with. Sorry it posted sideways

One of the great things about using VFG pellets and the threaded jag pictured with it is the fact that you can twist the cleaning rod clockwise while the pellet is in the bore and the pellet will grow in diameter. Doing so gives you a tighter fit in the barrel. The pellet rides up the tapered jag and grows in diameter. Too tight, just rotate the cleaning rod CCW and the pellet loosens while in the bore.
 
Im on my first break. Worked 12hrs today then figured id chamber a barrel or two. Just got one dialed in im drinking a diet mt dew
In Alabama, we drink our Mountain Dew uncut. Full caffeine Full sugar.

Jb on patch wrapped around an old brush is quick and easy. No harm seen. I am careful around the crown.
 
Anyone have any feedback on the use of Bore Tech Chameleon Gel on hard carbon?


I have a tube here and its not in the same league as iosso. The chameleon gel works real well to show if there are any carbon or copper in the barrel if you dont have a scope but to remove the hard stuff I use iosso on n tight patch or vfg pellet
 
the reason I ask is that most people do not read the jb bore paste instructions.
"a tight fitting patch' WITHOUT THAT YOU ARE JUST WORKING YOUR ARM, not the bore.
there was a post once by a guy the counted 100 strokes and said no noticeable change...on his loose fitting mop.
Yeah, when I started using it, whenever that was, I did the parker hale thing with a patch. It worked, but no better than the VFG. However, it is much harder to feel where you are in the bore with a patch vs. the pellet, and the pellet never rolls over creating a tough pull or push. On this particular barrel it may have made a difference, but in all reality no normal shooting barrel should get that bad.
 
In my experience with both, IOSSO cuts better than JB for hard carbon. Don't stroke the whole barrel just short stroke the affected area. The carbon is pulling the copper. You will also have alternating layers, so it is good to alternate IOSSO with a strong copper solvent in a case like yours, dissolving the copper as you uncover it. Working with a good bore guide, being careful with the rod, there is no virtue in making slow strokes with an abrasive. Laying down copper is exacerbated by bullet speed so there is a lot less concern about over polishing back in the throat than farther up the bore, and you can't over polish the steel when it is still covered with something else. Some years back, a friend was dealing with a very slight hard carbon ring at the back edge of the freebore, I had told him to use IOSSO but being hard headed he first tried JB on a patch scrubbing the problem area. It did not work, but with IOSSO he was successful. The whole thing would have been over and done with the first time if he had used the product and method that I suggested, but he was concerned about moving the throat forward. Many years later, a friend of both of us was dealing with a similar problem and he had been pussyfooting around because he had been listening to the first fellow. Luckily he had very carefully measured his throat. After failing with all other methods, he finally followed my advice, and the carbon was removed. After that he carefully remeasured his barrels throat, and it had not moved at all. It seems that my other friend had hamstrung his own cleaning procedures for years because of unfounded speculation. The second fellow who finally used the method that I advised did so with accurate barrel on a light varmint 6PPC that had developed some accuracy issues because of the carbon. After it was removed, the rifle's accuracy was restored. None of the problems that I have mentioned were even close to as bad as yours. One has a bore scope and the other lives close enough to use it. I have had one for years.
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You can over do it and actually wear your barrel out by scrubbing it with abrasive cleaners. Once you get the copper out, you may be better off shooting the rifle then cleaning it better in the future. The carbon ring may or may not screw up your groups. If you are getting good groups with the carbon ring where it is, just clean the barrel properly each time you shoot it. The carbon may come out eventually but if you keep running JB into the bore it is more likely that you will be removing steel from the lands more than carbon. The steel is a lot softer.
 
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You can over do it and actually wear your barrel out by scrubbing it with abrasive cleaners. Once you get the copper out, you may be better off shooting the rifle then cleaning it better in the future. The carbon ring may or may not screw up your groups. If you are getting good groups with the carbon ring where it is, just clean the barrel properly each time you shoot it. The carbon may come out eventually but if you keep running JB into the bore it is more likely that you will be removing steel from the lands more than carbon. The steel is a lot softer.

I'm just waiting to see anyone take my challenge of putting JB on a patch and rub it on the barrel and "remove metal".

I've done my own challenge.

Good luck removing anything from a barrel made out of steel with a JB patch with your fingers. See you in maybe a week of rubbing, if ever.
 
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You can over do it and actually wear your barrel out by scrubbing it with abrasive cleaners. Once you get the copper out, you may be better off shooting the rifle then cleaning it better in the future. The carbon ring may or may not screw up your groups. If you are getting good groups with the carbon ring where it is, just clean the barrel properly each time you shoot it. The carbon may come out eventually but if you keep running JB into the bore it is more likely that you will be removing steel from the lands more than carbon. The steel is a lot softer.
I have never seen any indication, nor read of any account of hard carbon just going away in the course of normal shooting and cleaning. Of course one needs to be careful with stronger cleaning methods, and not use them unnecessarily. Fortunately we are in the beginning of a new age of bore scope affordably, so we have no real excuse for guessing about what the inside of a bore looks like. This allows shooters to have a way to catch problems early enough that they can be dealt with without much risk of barrel damage. As far as a carbon ring possibly not negatively affecting accuracy, I have never seen that. Generally, hard carbon becomes more difficult to deal with the longer that it accumulates.
 
I'm just waiting to see anyone take my challenge of putting JB on a patch and rub it on the barrel and "remove metal".

I've done my own challenge.

Good luck removing anything from a barrel made out of steel with a JB patch with your fingers. See you in maybe a week of rubbing, if ever.
I agree here, easy enough for the non believers put some on a patch and spin a barrel stub in lathe at 1000 rpms you will be hours with no change in size....now 40 x is a whole different discussion
 
I agree here, easy enough for the non believers put some on a patch and spin a barrel stub in lathe at 1000 rpms you will be hours with no change in size....now 40 x is a whole different discussion

Someone sticky this post.

If I see one more "removing metal" post, I'm going to explode.
 
Do they even sell 40x anymore? What was that 80 grit carbide suspended in oil?
Dusty It is still sold at walmart. And yes it is aggressive. I prefer it to jb if I had a choice you can make barrels to smooth and they will pick up more fouling
 
The whole removing metal thing is really about the edges of the rifling. We are running a compound, patch, etc., over what is supposed to be a precision edge. Doing that is going to have some negative impact on the edge, just like if you did it to a knife. The other concern is using too much compound, or using compound in the wrong way, is negating the lapping that has already been done to a precision barrel - obviously less of a concern on an unlapped barrel.

The counter is that all this stuff is less abrasive than the bullet screaming down the pipe. Even the "rub it on plastic and you will see it does not scratch" is garbage. I myself have done this to clear up clouded lenses. Yes it did not leave visible scratches, but it did remove stuff. Over time the "clear" goes away and you can see where the compound stripped away a fine layer of material. The no visible scratches is a human eye thing. It scratches plenty, just not that we can see. If not, how the heck would a compound be any better than liquid?

Fire lapping on the other hand, that is taking material away in a measurable way. Even Tubbs' instructions for his cleaning bullets say the process removes up to 0.0003 inches of material. Is that a lot? maybe, maybe not, but it is removing material.

The barrel manufactures don't help me much either. They give the list of do's and don'ts, but with all the distortion we Internet scholars put out there it is hard to say of the manufactures lists are because it matters or because they don't want people doing stuff then blaming them for a bad barrel. I for one would not blame them if it is for the latter.

I am no engineer when it comes to this stuff but I do think something that attracts more bullet jacket or constricts the movement of the bullet is negative that keeps getting worse until you do something about it. At that point we are likely trading temporary relief for a less perfect bullet travel down clean grooves.
 
Do they even sell 40x anymore? What was that 80 grit carbide suspended in oil?
Is the 40x the old "Gold Medallion" I used back in the late 80's, early 90's? Seems to me Remington bought out Gold Medallion and called it RemClean or something like that. IRRC they raised the price and I stopped using it.
 
Is the 40x the old "Gold Medallion" I used back in the late 80's, early 90's? Seems to me Remington bought out Gold Medallion and called it RemClean or something like that. IRRC they raised the price and I stopped using it.
No this stuff was always and still called 40x bore cleaner. Its some ruff stuff not really suited for any bore
 

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