New JOYpod feet from Seb

[Dos XX]

Cut and pasted from the rule book from this link: https://competitions.nra.org/competition-resources/rule-books/


"The use of “tables” i.e. a single flat solid surface extending under both front rest and rear bag is prohibited. Carpet or similarly flexible matting may be placed under the front rest and rear bag. Separate flat boards and or plates not exceeding the dimensions of the individual rests by two inches on a given side may also be placed under the front rest and rear bag. In the case of a bipod, the board or plate may be as wide as necessary to accommodate the bipod at its widest point, but not be more than 12” front to rear. It is not permitted to provide tracks for the guidance of bipod feet. No levelling screws or protrusions are allowed on these boards or plates. They must be flat on the top and bottom."

I added the bold.

While it might not matter for this discussion, the part that says, "nor allow the feet to create them" is not there. I'm not sure where that came from. Might it be from an Australian rule book? Again, it might not make a difference to the interpretation, but the rule book needs to be quoted accurately.

If someone can show where the other part is stated, please do.

I'll also add that if the Pod Pad has been blessed, I see no difference in a carpet with nap and a pod pad as it pertains to that rule. I'm not arguing for or against a specific interpretation, just adding this to the discussion.

 

[Barossa_222]

I'm quite happy to clarify my comment. The feet in themselves are not illegal, unless used in conjunction with material that allow for tracking, such as a towel. If the rifle can't be moved in all directions freely, this would constitute a breach in the rules as far as I can interpret. There were questions raised with the RO at one event and a protest lodged at another. The RO cleared them in both instances as jasmay pointed out. I was merely expressing my opinion. At the end of the day, the RO has the final say.

 

[jasmay]

I'm quite happy to clarify my comment. The feet in themselves are not illegal, unless used in conjunction with material that allow for tracking, such as a towel. If the rifle can't be moved in all directions freely, this would constitute a breach in the rules as far as I can interpret. There were questions raised with the RO at one event and a protest lodged at another. The RO cleared them in both instances as jasmay pointed out. I was merely expressing my opinion. At the end of the day, the RO has the final say.

Thanks for clarifying that, your original comment, as can be seen by the many comments after it did point to it being an issue with the feet, not the mat used.

“Barossa_222: They promote tracking and are illegal for use in F Class. Guns have been pulled off the mound and protests lodged at recent events”

No where did you said anything about the mat being the problem, just that “they (being the feet) promote tracking and are illegal”

We now know that it has been to the highest level within the NRAA for clarity and there is no issue with the feet.

At least we have got to the bottom of it.

 

[Trevor60]

Cut and pasted from the rule book from this link: https://competitions.nra.org/competition-resources/rule-books/


It is not permitted to provide tracks for the guidance of bipod feet. No leveling screws or protrusions are allowed on these boards or plates. They must be flat on the top and bottom."

I added the bold.

While it might not matter for this discussion, the part that says, "nor allow the feet to create them" is not there. I'm not sure where that came from. Might it be from an Australian rule book? Again, it might not make a difference to the interpretation, but the rule book needs to be quoted accurately.

If someone can show where the other part is stated, please do.

I'll also add that if the Pod Pad has been blessed, I see no difference in a carpet with nap and a pod pad as it pertains to that rule. I'm not arguing for or against a specific interpretation, just adding this to the discussion.

The rule I provided is from ICFRA http://www.icfra.co.uk/FC_Rules_2018_final.pdf
It may or may not come into affect depending on where you shoot or if the match follows international standards.


Thank you for the clarification Barossa_222... Jasmay said it the best.

Trevor

 

[Medic505]

It is not permitted to provide tracks for the guidance of bipod feet.

Thanks for pointing this out Dos. Teaches me to read the fine print in the proper rule book. I always knew you'd be a fine jailhouse lawyer.....

 

[Tempest]

Yep.

When I see a bipod with virtual knife blades as skis riding in parallel slits cut in a deep pile carpeting, that gives me pause.

I saw this literally 2018 in Raton. Grooves cut into carpet on a board.

 

[seb]

Barossa-222: "They promote tracking and are illegal for use in F Class"

And then: "I'm quite happy to clarify my comment. The feet in themselves are not illegal, unless used in conjunction with material that allow for tracking, such as a towel. If the rifle can't be moved in all directions freely, this would constitute a breach in the rules as far as I can interpret...."

-----

It is always wiser to not judge ("they promote tracking and illegal for use in F-Class"), mate.. especially when you have no clue with the rules and/or its technical essence. ("...in conjunction with material that allow for tracking such as a towel. If the rifle can't be moved in all directions freely,...")

I would be happy to get your expert sights/opinion on how a light towel (alone/ONLY) will provide you "track", shooting a .308 F/TR rifle?
Or how you cannot take your rifle freely in all directions with just a towel under your bipod (and nothing else under the towel)?

----
I don't speak/understand English very well myself however I never have problem interpreting most of the rules in the discipline that I shoot, nor to try to interpret them in the wrong way. Many times I just take it as "The rules say that, I must follow whatever it says and would never care someone's else setup etc as it's not my business" and it makes me happy that way.

Best,
seb

 

[David101]

I could see that a towel could be used to form tracks quite easily. Those that are using carpet with tracks cut in them and any other method that promotes tracks are really only cheating themselves at the end of the day. Deep down they must know they are gaining an advantage. There are plenty of statements in the rules about gaining an unfair advantage.

The groves cut in the feet of the bipod IMHO are pushing the limits they are going to gain traction forward and rear and resist sideways movement. I am surprised the protest was not up held. If the rules go to the extent of saying the board must be flat surly the feet of the bipod being flat will be the next step.

 

[Medium rare]

If you have knife blade feet with the heaviest 70s shag carpet and you don’t hold your 308 properly it will be multiple targets over after the shot. I would think that rails provided for tracking would keep the rifle on the target, similar to open front rest. If you put your bipod straight down on the grass mound the grass would provide tracks after a couple shots. NRA rules are not clear and unfortunately are subject to interpretation. There is a spectrum of tracking ability with a FTR setups. It would be best if the NRA would clarify in the rule book what constitutes tracks provided.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Today I shot a full match using my JOYpod with the new feet from Seb. I like that it enabled me to setup quickly and that the feet were completely flat without any fuss.

I have been using a JOYpod for about 4 years now, IIRC. I've used various surfaces on which to rest it but for the last 2+ years, I've been using a simple 12X24 shelf on which I have a very thick rubber mat with the topside having a cloth surface. The bipod glides nicely on the surface and it doesn't make grooves. As you can see the thousands of rounds fired on this surface with the same bipod has left black streaks on the cloth surface.

When I fire the round, the rifle invariable points left about 2 targets at Bayou, that's with the original flat feet. I always reposition on line by pushing and pulling the rifle; It takes about three pumps and I'm back on-line. A lot of the black streaks on there are from that action. It's very consistent.

Today with the new feet, I found that the rifle has the exact same recoil action, it jumped 2 targets to the left, exactly as before but the pumping required to bring it back on-line was much smoother.

The wind today was atrocious so I can't use the scores to compare to prior matches with the other feet. That will be for some other matches in the future.

My smartphone, the stupendous Samsung Galaxy Note 8, has super-slo-mo capabilities and I had my scorer use it to record a shot so I could analyze it later. I'm happy to share it with you now. There is no sound, this is super slo-mo.

http://img.gg/QlHTZ9q

ETA: It's interesting to see the unit jump up a little bit and I believe the torque effect of the heavy bullet in a very fast twist is shown with the left foot coming off the surface while the right one appears to stay on the surface.

 

[BP1]

Today I shot a full match using my JOYpod with the new feet from Seb. I like that it enabled me to setup quickly and that the feet

I have been using a JOYpod for about 4 years now, IIRC. I've used various surfaces on which to rest it but for the last 2+ years, I've been using a simple 12X24 shelf on which I have a very thick rubber mat with the topside having a cloth surface. The bipod glides nicely on the surface and it doesn't make grooves. As you can see the thousands of rounds fired on this surface with the same bipod has left black streaks on the cloth surface.

When I fire the round, the rifle invariable points left about 2 targets at Bayou, that's with the original flat feet. I always reposition on line by pushing and pulling the rifle; It takes about three pumps and I'm back on-line. A lot of the black streaks on there are from that action. It's very consistent.

Today with the new feet, I found that the rifle has the exact same recoil action, it jumped 2 targets to the left, exactly as before but the pumping required to bring it back on-line was much smoother.

The wind today was atrocious so I can't use the scores to compare to prior matches with the other feet. That will be for some other matches in the future.

My smartphone, the stupendous Samsung Galaxy Note 8, has super-slo-mo capabilities and I had my scorer use it to record a shot so I could analyze it later. I'm happy to share it with you now. There is no sound, this is super slo-mo.

http://img.gg/QlHTZ9q

ETA: It's interesting to see the unit jump up a little bit and I believe the torque effect of the heavy bullet in a very fast twist is shown with the left foot coming off the surface while the right one appears to stay on the surface.

Maybe try putting some carpet no that board and the groove will stop it from hopping ...or learn how to get behind the gun properly so it doesn’t hop hop 2 targets left.

 

[Medium rare]

Today I shot a full match using my JOYpod with the new feet from Seb. I like that it enabled me to setup quickly and that the feet were completely flat without any fuss.

I have been using a JOYpod for about 4 years now, IIRC. I've used various surfaces on which to rest it but for the last 2+ years, I've been using a simple 12X24 shelf on which I have a very thick rubber mat with the topside having a cloth surface. The bipod glides nicely on the surface and it doesn't make grooves. As you can see the thousands of rounds fired on this surface with the same bipod has left black streaks on the cloth surface.

When I fire the round, the rifle invariable points left about 2 targets at Bayou, that's with the original flat feet. I always reposition on line by pushing and pulling the rifle; It takes about three pumps and I'm back on-line. A lot of the black streaks on there are from that action. It's very consistent.

Today with the new feet, I found that the rifle has the exact same recoil action, it jumped 2 targets to the left, exactly as before but the pumping required to bring it back on-line was much smoother.

The wind today was atrocious so I can't use the scores to compare to prior matches with the other feet. That will be for some other matches in the future.

My smartphone, the stupendous Samsung Galaxy Note 8, has super-slo-mo capabilities and I had my scorer use it to record a shot so I could analyze it later. I'm happy to share it with you now. There is no sound, this is super slo-mo.

http://img.gg/QlHTZ9q

ETA: It's interesting to see the unit jump up a little bit and I believe the torque effect of the heavy bullet in a very fast twist is shown with the left foot coming off the surface while the right one appears to stay on the surface.

Would you say that your cloth surface is similar to carpet?

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Would you say that your cloth surface is similar to carpet?

No, not at all. It's glued on to provide a slick surface for the bipod to slide on, instead of the rubber itself.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Maybe try putting some carpet no that board and the groove will stop it from hopping ...or learn how to get behind the gun properly so it doesn’t hop hop 2 targets left.

I'm an older person who is set in his way. When I was pumping out 180s in a 1:11 twist, it was just fine but I noticed the 20 MOA jump left when I switched to a very fast twist and a 210 gr bullet. The hop did not increase when I switched to the 230.

 

[Medium rare]

No, not at all. It's glued on to provide a slick surface for the bipod to slide on, instead of the rubber itself.

The rules state that your front mat must be similar to carpet. Maybe your front mat is not legal?

The use of “tables” i.e. a single flat solid surface extending under both front rest and rear bag is prohibited. Carpet or similarly flexible matting may be placed under the front rest and rear bag. Separate flat boards and or plates not exceeding the dimensions of the individual rests by two inches on a given side may also be placed under the front rest and rear bag. In the case of a bipod, the board or plate may be as wide as necessary to accommodate the bipod at its widest point, but not be more than 12” front to rear. It is not permitted to provide tracks for the guidance of bipod feet. No levelling screws or protrusions are allowed on these boards or plates. They must be flat on the top and bottom."

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Yeah, it's that flexible matting thing. Been using it for years, it's never been questioned. It certainly provides no tracks for the guidance of bipod feet. It's 12x24, which fits the required dimensions exctly.

 

[BP1]

One simply can’t cherry pick a portion of the rule from the middle of a sentence and say he is within the out of context rule.

 

[Bindi2]

Today I shot a full match using my JOYpod with the new feet from Seb. I like that it enabled me to setup quickly and that the feet were completely flat without any fuss.

I have been using a JOYpod for about 4 years now, IIRC. I've used various surfaces on which to rest it but for the last 2+ years, I've been using a simple 12X24 shelf on which I have a very thick rubber mat with the topside having a cloth surface. The bipod glides nicely on the surface and it doesn't make grooves. As you can see the thousands of rounds fired on this surface with the same bipod has left black streaks on the cloth surface.

When I fire the round, the rifle invariable points left about 2 targets at Bayou, that's with the original flat feet. I always reposition on line by pushing and pulling the rifle; It takes about three pumps and I'm back on-line. A lot of the black streaks on there are from that action. It's very consistent.

Today with the new feet, I found that the rifle has the exact same recoil action, it jumped 2 targets to the left, exactly as before but the pumping required to bring it back on-line was much smoother.

The wind today was atrocious so I can't use the scores to compare to prior matches with the other feet. That will be for some other matches in the future.

My smartphone, the stupendous Samsung Galaxy Note 8, has super-slo-mo capabilities and I had my scorer use it to record a shot so I could analyze it later. I'm happy to share it with you now. There is no sound, this is super slo-mo.

http://img.gg/QlHTZ9q

ETA: It's interesting to see the unit jump up a little bit and I believe the torque effect of the heavy bullet in a very fast twist is shown with the left foot coming off the surface while the right one appears to stay on the surface.

Move your pod rearwards until the rifle behaves. Body at 30degrees very light left hand on forend . Cut any thing forward of pod off and add it to the muzzle as tuner up to 10% of barrel weight or to maximum rifle weight. Length of pull will be longer than shotgun measurement because you are lying down. A limb saver pad added maybe all you need. Experiment

 

[Bindi2]

Also put your thumb alongside your trigger finger

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

One simply can’t cherry pick a portion of the rule from the middle of a sentence and say he is within the out of context rule.

What are you trying to say? I should glue a thick carpet on my board and use it to track?

If you read the rule and look at my rest, you will see that it meets the rule as written and satisfies the intent of the rule. My rest provides zero guidance for the feet the bipod is free to dance on it as it wants. The fact that my rig jumps a third of a degrre to the left and that I can easily slide back in line by just sliding back and firth a few times is proof positive there is no guidance of the feet.