Lot speeds are they by design or luck of the draw

[HuskerP7M8]

Hi Landy, Thanks for posting you findings and testing results. I was wondering have you found any correlation between a well seasoned barrel and a overly fouled barrel as it relates to velocity.
in other words does it have an effect if fouling affects velocity.

Lee

What's your definition of a well seasoned barrel?

I've heard of some shooters who believe it may take upwards of 50 rds in a thoroughly clean barrel to become well seasoned!

I'm sure you and others who hang out on RFC have heard the same, and most of the time they're working with factory barrels or barrels of unknown quality that we never use in RFBR.

The most common explanation I've heard over the years for this phenomenon, that makes any sense to me at all, is that these barrels have rough or pitted bores and it takes that many rds to fill the pores resulting in a smoother bore. I find this doubtful, but I don't have enough data to either support or refute because I try to always work with the quality barrels most often used in RFBR.

Anyway, the above may or may not be an exception to the rule that you have to at least be aware of and my response is only relevant for the myriad of BR quality barrels I've tested over many years.

The other problem I have in making a response to your question is that I rarely test until I reach whatever the definition of an overly fouled bore is. So what is an overly fouled barrel? LOL

The question is rhetorical and I don't have a definitive answer, but overly fouled has to mean the point where you see measurable changes in velocity over a very long series of shots or measurable changes in precision over the same series of shots.

Because I have very little data with shot strings over 100 rds in a clean bore and don't really know what an overly fouled barrel is, I can only tell you what happens with the first 100 rds.

I've found that the first shot is almost always 10 fps to 50 fps faster than the mean velocity of the string of shots and almost always lands higher on the target. Don't forget there are always exceptions to this rule and one of them would be that if the first shot happens to be under primed or under powdered resulting in a lower velocity rd. Incredibly rare, but it can and does happen.

Now here's something really weird and I've yet to come up with an explanation of why it occurs. The second shot will be slower than the mean velocity the majority of the time.

The third shot will be within the mean velocity and the statistical uncertainties and won't be a statistical outlier (flier) in the 100 shot distribution.

The forth and subsequent shots will be the same as the third shot, but as the bore fouls you'll see a very small increase in velocity. This very small increase is in the range of only 2 or 3 fps and it's only detectable with a chronograph system like mine. It will remain totally invisible with all the commercial chronographs I'm aware of at present and that includes the commercial dopler units like the LabRadar.

Yeah, I know, a very long answer to what many might consider a simple and easy question you asked. LOL

Landy

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

What's your definition of a well seasoned barrel?

I've heard of some shooters who believe it may take upwards of 50 rds in a thoroughly clean barrel to become well seasoned!

I'm sure you and others who hang out on RFC have heard the same, and most of the time they're working with factory barrels or barrels of unknown quality that we never use in RFBR.

The most common explanation I've heard over the years for this phenomenon, that makes any sense to me at all, is that these barrels have rough or pitted bores and it takes that many rds to fill the pores resulting in a smoother bore. I find this doubtful, but I don't have enough data to either support or refute because I try to always work with the quality barrels most often used in RFBR.

Anyway, the above may or may not be an exception to the rule that you have to at least be aware of and my response is only relevant for the myriad of BR quality barrels I've tested over many years.



The other problem I have in making a response to your question is that I rarely test until I reach whatever the definition of an overly fouled bore is. So what is an overly fouled barrel? LOL

The question is rhetorical and I don't have a definitive answer, but overly fouled has to mean the point where you see measurable changes in velocity over a very long series of shots or measurable changes in precision over the same series of shots.

Because I have very little data with shot strings over 100 rds in a clean bore and don't really know what an overly fouled barrel is, I can only tell you what happens with the first 100 rds.

I've found that the first shot is almost always 10 fps to 50 fps faster than the mean velocity of the string of shots and almost always lands higher on the target. Don't forget there are always exceptions to this rule and one of them would be that if the first shot happens to be under primed or under powdered resulting in a lower velocity rd. Incredibly rare, but it can and does happen.

Now here's something really weird and I've yet to come up with an explanation of why it occurs. The second shot will be slower than the mean velocity the majority of the time.

The third shot will be within the mean velocity and the statistical uncertainties and won't be a statistical outlier (flier) in the 100 shot distribution.

The forth and subsequent shots will be the same as the third shot, but as the bore fouls you'll see a very small increase in velocity. This very small increase is in the range of only 2 or 3 fps and it's only detectable with a chronograph system like mine. It will remain totally invisible with all the commercial chronographs I'm aware of at present and that includes the commercial dopler units like the LabRadar.

Yeah, I know, a very long answer to what many might consider a simple and easy question you asked. LOL

Landy

Hi Landy, I guess my question was rather vague, sorry about that. my question was as it pertains to match quality barrels, such as Shilen, Benchmarks, etc.
well seasoned being what is needed to bring the barrel to be ready for score/group shooting. overly fouled ? where the barrel is now shooting way outside the standards/levels it did from shots 1-?

I do appreciate your answers as it did answer my questions. interesting in your observation as what happens within the first few shots. could the very first shot be high due to residue from cleaning solvents/oil? I always wondered about that.

Lee

 

[Tim s]

I do appreciate your answers as it did answer my questions. interesting in your observation as what happens within the first few shots. could the very first shot be high due to residue from cleaning solvents/oil? I always wondered about that.

Lee[/QUOTE]

I’m sure Landy will jump in here, but, a clean bore has no lube in it.
Once you get 1-2 shots, you get warm lube down the bore which slows the slugs down a touch.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I do appreciate your answers as it did answer my questions. interesting in your observation as what happens within the first few shots. could the very first shot be high due to residue from cleaning solvents/oil? I always wondered about that.

Lee

I’m sure Landy will jump in here, but, a clean bore has no lube in it.
Once you get 1-2 shots, you get warm lube down the bore which slows the slugs down a touch.[/QUOTE]

Tim, That is kind of what my question was on seasoned and overly fouled, if Landy had seen any change in velocity. but since he did not say anything about that, I assume he did not, at least not anything worth noting.

Lee

 

[HuskerP7M8]

I’m sure Landy will jump in here, but, a clean bore has no lube in it.
Once you get 1-2 shots, you get warm lube down the bore which slows the slugs down a touch.

Tim, That is kind of what my question was on seasoned and overly fouled, if Landy had seen any change in velocity. but since he did not say anything about that, I assume he did not, at least not anything worth noting.

Lee[/QUOTE]
Lee,

It's quite possible I'm missing something, but I don't know how to respond any better than I did in my previous post regarding your quote above.

As regards the first shot and Tim's comments, I'll jump in, but I'm not sure how well I can answer the questions. I'm somewhat of an expert on exterior ballistics but don't have the same expertise in the area of interior ballistics.

I'll offer a few observations and opinions, but I don't have the data to back up what I say because I haven't specifically tested what some are curious about.

I would guess that if you didn't use enough dry patches to completely remove the solvent/oil residue after cleaning, it may provide some lubricity that further increases the velocity for the first shot.

I normally push two dry patches through the bore, but I'm thinking there might be a drastic change with no patches and maybe a smaller change if I used three. I may not want to even try firing a shot without any patching, but a single very loose fitting patch should suffice.

This should be relatively easy to test for and I may try it the next time I visit my tunnel. However, it's also probably dependent on the type of solvent/oil being used when cleaning.

Tim's theory on the effects of the lube may be correct for subsequent shots, and I think I could also test that by simply removing the wax for a short series of shots and repeating the process a few times.

My curiosity is aroused, but if I don't see anything close to statistical significance with some very limited testing, I'm not willing to devote the time and ammo for something that in the grand scheme of things is of little importance in RFBR.

Am I on track, or am I still missing something?

Landy

 

[JMayo]

Wow .. . I can only scan through all that's being typed.

What I did read is fouling shots and Max round until accuracy falls off.
Mine it 10 to foul. 60 it starts to fall off. Shilen barrel.

 

[Tim s]

I do not dry patch anything but like many I use a minor and a major cleaning routine.
Between matches or at a match with lots or cards, I will brush with a bronze brush and solvent.
If it is a 3 gun card I will patch with oil and follow with 1-2 dry patches.
After a major clean, 1st shot is a good 1” high....comes right in with 3-4 shots, with the oil/patch deal 1st shot might be 2-3 bullets high and be ready to go after 2-3 shots. This with all my barrels, 4 different mfr’s.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Tim, That is kind of what my question was on seasoned and overly fouled, if Landy had seen any change in velocity. but since he did not say anything about that, I assume he did not, at least not anything worth noting.

Lee

Lee,

It's quite possible I'm missing something, but I don't know how to respond any better than I did in my previous post regarding your quote above.

As regards the first shot and Tim's comments, I'll jump in, but I'm not sure how well I can answer the questions. I'm somewhat of an expert on exterior ballistics but don't have the same expertise in the area of interior ballistics.

I'll offer a few observations and opinions, but I don't have the data to back up what I say because I haven't specifically tested what some are curious about.

I would guess that if you didn't use enough dry patches to completely remove the solvent/oil residue after cleaning, it may provide some lubricity that further increases the velocity for the first shot.

I normally push two dry patches through the bore, but I'm thinking there might be a drastic change with no patches and maybe a smaller change if I used three. I may not want to even try firing a shot without any patching, but a single very loose fitting patch should suffice.

This should be relatively easy to test for and I may try it the next time I visit my tunnel. However, it's also probably dependent on the type of solvent/oil being used when cleaning.

Tim's theory on the effects of the lube may be correct for subsequent shots, and I think I could also test that by simply removing the wax for a short series of shots and repeating the process a few times.

My curiosity is aroused, but if I don't see anything close to statistical significance with some very limited testing, I'm not willing to devote the time and ammo for something that in the grand scheme of things is of little importance in RFBR.

Am I on track, or am I still missing something?

Landy[/QUOTE]

Landy, I think you understand what I am asking. my question has to do with if lube build up affects velocity which I am pretty sure would affect accuracy would it not?
in a nut shell so to speak if it is lube build up will just a dry patch down the barrel be enough to get the barrel shooting again. if that was the case sure would make things easier shooting in a match.

Lee

 

[Tim s]

If I am not mistaken there was, in the past, considerable discussion about this, mostly on the WLM channel so take that for what it's worth.
I believe one primary reason ELEY (as the example) made a modest change to it’s forward drive band was to sharpen it’s leading edge.
Thus it was able to better scrape excess fouling and lube and able to keep warm lube in the bore at a somewhat constant level.
Like Landy I really don’t shoot excessive round counts but it struck me as reasonable.
More than one gunsmith has told me, however, the potential problem area is the throat where buildup of fouling gets to the level where it swages the slug down below bore size......bad juju.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

If I am not mistaken there was, in the past, considerable discussion about this, mostly on the WLM channel so take that for what it's worth.
I believe one primary reason ELEY (as the example) made a modest change to it’s forward drive band was to sharpen it’s leading edge.
Thus it was able to better scrape excess fouling and lube and able to keep warm lube in the bore at a somewhat constant level.
Like Landy I really don’t shoot excessive round counts but it struck me as reasonable.
More than one gunsmith has told me, however, the potential problem area is the throat where buildup of fouling gets to the level where it swages the slug down below bore size......bad juju.

Tim,
I didn't know that about Eley I try and run at least wet VFG pellets after 50 rounds when at the range.

and I scrub the lead and barrel when I get home, I use the bush for maybe 4-5 cleanings, then use a new one

Lee

 

[Tim s]

Tim,
I didn't know that about Eley I try and run at least wet VFG pellets after 50 rounds when at the range.

and I scrub the lead and barrel when I get home, I use the bush for maybe 4-5 cleanings, then use a new one

Lee

I actually just ordered a bunch of the vfg’s, been meaning to try them.
When they were first intro’d they contacted me in regard to testing/evaluating them but I passed.....probably foolishly, I have heard nothing but good stuff about them.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I actually just ordered a bunch of the vfg’s, been meaning to try them.
When they were first intro’d they contacted me in regard to testing/evaluating them but I passed.....probably foolishly, I have heard nothing but good stuff about them.

Tim, The biggest plus on these are that you can easily control how tight they are when pushing them thru the bore by simply how much you screw the pellet onto the jag.
I been using them for well over 6-7 years

Lee

 

[HuskerP7M8]

Landy, I think you understand what I am asking. my question has to do with if lube build up affects velocity which I am pretty sure would affect accuracy would it not?
in a nut shell so to speak if it is lube build up will just a dry patch down the barrel be enough to get the barrel shooting again. if that was the case sure would make things easier shooting in a match.

Lee

Thanks Lee, that helps.

I've already stated there is a very small but unimportant increase in velocity that's barely detectable in 100 shot strings. Will that affect precision? In my opinion....no. With more than that many rds....who knows? I don't.

As regards patching to remove some lube/wax?

I really don't know for certain if excess wax/lube in the bore is a problem, or if it's even possible to achieve an excess wax condition, of if the uniformity of the lube through the length of the barrel is a consideration. There's even a new thread on the WLM channel where they're discussing the same subject that you may find of interest.

I'm sure some of the readers of this thread may think it's easy to test something like this, but it's most definitely not!

Fact is, most everything we're most curious about regarding RF precision causes so much confusion and acrimony that I've almost quit commenting or posting any technical articles on forums. I've grown very weary of butting heads with all the experts who present their theories as fact or simply parrot anecdotal accounts without a shred of any data whatsoever.

I rarely if ever state any "positives" unless I have the data to back up what I say, but it's obvious (at least to me) that very few others have the same concerns.

Sorry for the short rant, but it made me feel better. LOL

The above being said, if it "IS" a condition that contributes to poor performance, one wet (dependent on the solvent used) and two dry, or maybe two dry patches would surely remove at least some of the wax. If you try to test this theory properly, it'll be a daunting task and in my opinion not worth it.

It might be best for everyone to think of cleaning a rifle as an insurance policy. There's no doubt that any firearm without cleaning will quit shooting at some point, so clean the bore and remove the C/L ring at periodic intervals.

Leaving shortly and going camping for the weekend,

Landy

PS I've been playing with the VFG felts since I first heard about them and think they work very well, but I usually still clean with patches because it's a little faster. I use them primarily with a JB/Kroil mixture if I think the barrel may be trending toward poorer performance based on previous data. In the past, I've seen some improvement that are almost statistically significant and especially so with Shilen Octagons for some unknown reason.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Thanks Lee, that helps.

I've already stated there is a very small but unimportant increase in velocity that's barely detectable in 100 shot strings. Will that affect precision? In my opinion....no. With more than that many rds....who knows? I don't.

As regards patching to remove some lube/wax?

I really don't know for certain if excess wax/lube in the bore is a problem, or if it's even possible to achieve an excess wax condition, of if the uniformity of the lube through the length of the barrel is a consideration. There's even a new thread on the WLM channel where they're discussing the same subject that you may find of interest.

I'm sure some of the readers of this thread may think it's easy to test something like this, but it's most definitely not!

Fact is, most everything we're most curious about regarding RF precision causes so much confusion and acrimony that I've almost quit commenting or posting any technical articles on forums. I've grown very weary of butting heads with all the experts who present their theories as fact or simply parrot anecdotal accounts without a shred of any data whatsoever.

I rarely if ever state any "positives" unless I have the data to back up what I say, but it's obvious (at least to me) that very few others have the same concerns.

Sorry for the short rant, but it made me feel better. LOL

The above being said, if it "IS" a condition that contributes to poor performance, one wet (dependent on the solvent used) and two dry, or maybe two dry patches would surely remove at least some of the wax. If you try to test this theory properly, it'll be a daunting task and in my opinion not worth it.

It might be best for everyone to think of cleaning a rifle as an insurance policy. There's no doubt that any firearm without cleaning will quit shooting at some point, so clean the bore and remove the C/L ring at periodic intervals.

Leaving shortly and going camping for the weekend,

Landy

PS I've been playing with the VFG felts since I first heard about them and think they work very well, but I usually still clean with patches because it's a little faster. I use them primarily with a JB/Kroil mixture if I think the barrel may be trending toward poorer performance based on previous data. In the past, I've seen some improvement that are almost statistically significant and especially so with Shilen Octagons for some unknown reason.

Landy Thanks, I always appreciate your posting and what you have experience. I don't know if this has any significance, but I noticed in cooler temps. it seems my rifles shoot better and longer in between running a pellet. warmer seems to be the opposite. I only shoot Lapua which is rather greasy for a lack of a better description. I wonder if more lube is being laid down in the bore in warmer weather.
so the need to clean is required earlier.

Lee

 

[pmpski_1]

This is a great thread, there is a lot to think about here. I'm trying to determine the approximate round count for 'fouling' my barrel before a match and it seems like it shoots better with a much higher round count than I previously thought.

 

[Tim s]

This is a great thread, there is a lot to think about here. I'm trying to determine the approximate round count for 'fouling' my barrel before a match and it seems like it shoots better with a much higher round count than I previously thought.

that might be because if you do not regularly attend to the throat it gets, somewhat, to a stable point although there is plenty of fouling in there.
Again, most commentary here has been involving custom fit, match grade barrels.
If yours is such, I’d guess, the vast majority of them get cleaned between, say, 50-100 rounds.
Cannot imagine yours would be materially different so, maybe, review how you clean, especially if you run high grade, match ammo.
Just something to look at.

 

[garandman]

They number their lots by velocity in m/ sec.

I cant see them doing this if velocity is happenstance / random. It suggests they *focus* on velocity... for some reason.

Manufacturers are very specific in their componentry. Powder /primer combos, lube, projectile diameter and weight, etc are all gonna drive velocity. Perhaps they arrive at velocity #'s after testing, but they still number lots by tested velocity.

 

[USMCDOC]

They number their lots by velocity in m/ sec.

I cant see them doing this if velocity is happenstance / random. It suggests they *focus* on velocity... for some reason.

Manufacturers are very specific in their componentry. Powder /primer combos, lube, projectile diameter and weight, etc are all gonna drive velocity. Perhaps they arrive at velocity #'s after testing, but they still number lots by tested velocity.

i think i read somewhere a few years back that Lapua's goal is to produce rimfire ammo that is at or close to 1073 fps

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

i think i read somewhere a few years back that Lapua's goal is to produce rimfire ammo that is at or close to 1073 fps

But how would they know you barrel will produce the same velocities? and why 1073, their goal is to produce ammo that will shoot best in a wide range of rifles & pistols, interesting if this is true.

I think I am going to ask Daniel at Lapua I will post what he says.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

This is a great thread, there is a lot to think about here. I'm trying to determine the approximate round count for 'fouling' my barrel before a match and it seems like it shoots better with a much higher round count than I previously thought.

How clean is the barrel to start with? the idea in fouling is to lay fresh new lube down in the barrel, if there is some carbon or old lube, it will be hard and crusty and cause the new lube to not stick or adhere to the bore as well, if the bore was clean.
every match .22 I every owned, even with factory barrels shot best when starting with a clean barrel. and normally no more than 10-fouling shots were needed. one thing I did notice was on factory barrels, if they were in good condition they took less shots to foul, if condition was somewhat questionable (pitting, damage) they took more and accuracy fell off rather quickly.

Lee