Arbour press and Wilson dies vs Redding & Forster dies

[manitou210]

I'm thinking of getting an arbour press and Wilson dies for bullet seating in my 6br and 308

what are your impressions of that set-up vs the Forster and Redding dies I'm using now?

basically looking to get as low run out as possible and better seating feel

 

[garandman]

I love ❤ my Wilson chamber seater dies. Within 1 / 1000th on concentricity and about 2 thousands on length to Ogive. And the K& M press lets you feel the relative neck tension.

Pay the extra to get the micrometer adjustment.

 

[garandman]

Or get the K&M with the pressure gauge.

 

[SealT5]

Best investment I’ve made. The microtop adjustment is a must and the pressure indicator is nice too.

Joe S

 

[JimSC]

Honestly mine just sets on the shelf most of the time now but they do make a nice press for range development if you get the micrometer dies and are into such things. I have a conventional arbor and found I get a lot more "feel" when seating than with a normal press due to less mechanical advantage from the linkage. That's why I use dry lube now, makes for a smoother feel when seating. I found no difference in runout between seating in a normal press vs the arbor. Bullets are like electricity, water and people. They take the path of least resistance into that neck so the closer tolerances of the Wilson's neck chamber in the seating dies sounds nice but in reality does not accomplish anything.

I bought the conventional dies not the micrometers. I rarely change seating depths once a load is found and I can do load development with my conventional press and micrometer dies. Then I just use the chosen length to make a dummy bullet to set the Wilson seating die with

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

Accuracy and consistency are all about minimizing tolerances. The arbor press and Wilson dies (with the micrometer head) do a better job than any other method.
If anyone tells you different, ask them how many BR matches they have won this year, and how many points towards the BR Hall of Fame they have.

 

[JimSC]

Accuracy and consistency are all about minimizing tolerances. The arbor press and Wilson dies (with the micrometer head) do a better job than any other method.
.

is that a subjective opinion or have you tested that theory ?

When I bought my arbor and Wilson inline I loaded 50 rounds of .260 Remington using 140 gn Nosler CC's. Twenty five rounds with the arbor and twenty five rounds with my RC and Forster micrometer seating die. I measured all rounds for concentricity and base to ogive length using a Starrett 120A dial indicator and a Starrett 245-141 dial indicator. Both the bullet runout and base to ogive averaged .0015 both methods.

Now for the rest of the story the Forster seating die is my old .308 Win seating die. When I changed calibers from .308 to .260 money was tight and I seated a few rounds with the .308 Forster just to see. That Wilson die is so tight that get a bullet into it I have to lift the die off the base to break the air seal so the bullet will slide in. Since the Forster is designed for a .308 means that neck is free floating in the die. Yet bullets seat just as concentric because if that neck is straight that bullet has no choice except to slide into parallel to the neck walls. The press no matter what type or brand is simply exerting force straight down on that bullets ogive. No lateral forces are being applied with enough force to bend that brass neck. Pure physics plain and simple

Anyway been using that .308 seating die for that .260 now for 4 years and two barrels. I admit I have never won a BR contest , but since I have never competed in BR that would be hard to do ::::grin:::: I did manage to get a couple of second place finishes my first year competing in F mid and long range with ammo loaded using that die setup. Hoping for a first soon

edit..... that does not mean I don't use the arbor and Wilson's occasionally. I do enjoy the sensitive feel of the seating. They are a good way to seat, just not the only way

 

[Uncle Ed]

German Salazar did a seating die test and the Redding competition seating dies came in first place and the Wilson die came in second place. The Redding and Forster competition seating dies were able to slightly correct case neck runout when seating the bullets.

Reloading: Seating Die Runout
Seating Die Induced Runout - A Comparison
by Germán A. Salazar
NOTE, the link below is in .pdf format so you will need Adobe reader.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjKuLz789XkAhWO2FkKHVBTD8YQFjAAegQIARAC&url=http://www.uniquetek.com/store/696296/uploaded/Reloading-Seating-Die-Runout.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0PTrUzbIFGXpTquMkz6CtT

The Rankings
And now, the moment you've been waiting for...

#1 - Redding Competition Seating Die (sliding sleeve type, threaded die)
The Redding, which I expected to finish high, did what I thought couldn't be done - it
produced rounds with an average runout that was less than the average case neck
runout of the brass used. In none of the ten rounds loaded did the Redding increase
the runout; it either held exactly the same or it decreased. The Redding, with an
Average Runout Change of -0.0003" is the winner. The negative sign, of course,
indicates a reduction in runout.

#2 - Wilson (chamber type, for arbor press)
I expected the Wilson to come out on top, given it's long-standing reputation as the
best seating die and its near universal use in Benchrest shooting. It didn't quite work
out that way, but the Wilson was very good, with only three rounds increasing runout
and an equal number decreasing, the remainder were zero-change. Wilson Average
Runout Change: +0.00015".

#3 - RCBS Standard Die (standard threaded die)
I expected the RCBS to be dead last, maybe by a big margin; was I ever wrong! I
was really surprised, quite pleasantly, by the RCBS die's performance. Three runout
increases, an equal number of decreases and four zero-change made for a very
creditable score. RCBS Average Runout Change: +0.00025".

#4 - Vickerman and Hornady (tie) (both partial sliding sleeve, neck only, threaded
dies)
These dies share a lot in common, being of universal use for a given caliber, in this
case, .30 caliber. You can seat bullets in anything from a .300 Savage to a .300
Winchester Magnum with these dies as they just capture the neck of the case in orderto align
it with the bullet. However, as your Economics professor taught you, there is no free lunch.
That universality of application reduces precision, though certainly not
to a level that would render them useless. With more increases in runout than
decreases, the Hornady lost ground. The Vickerman had a lot of zero-change rounds,
but increased 0.002" on a couple and that really hurt it's average performance. So,
the Hornady and Vickerman with an Average Runout Change of +0.0006",
bring up the rear - very much to my surprise. These are very useful dies, however
and let's keep some perspective, with an ARC of about half a thousandth, I wouldn't
be concerned about using them for Highpower match loading.

 

[JFrank]

I’ll probably get torched for saying this but here goes.

I seen less runout with my budget Hornday seater than my Wilson.
I also believe that most runout is introduced during sizing.
J

 

[JimSC]

#3 - RCBS Standard Die (standard threaded die)
I expected the RCBS to be dead last, maybe by a big margin; was I ever wrong! I
was really surprised, quite pleasantly, by the RCBS die's performance. Three runout
increases, an equal number of decreases and four zero-change made for a very
creditable score. RCBS Average Runout Change: +0.00025".

So where do the lateral forces com from in a seating die Uncle? I have tried tweaking bullets into concentricity, it isn't easy to make that bullet deflect evern .0005. I just did 90 rounds using some LC pull down brass on their first firing. Average runout on those was about .003. The necks were not in the best of shape but for their intended purpose they are good enough.

In regard to seating depth as long as the cone on the seating stem is deep enough to allow the stem to contact the bullet on the ogive not the meplat the depth consistency should be within the margin of error for that bullet. A Wilson non micrometer die should be the most accurate over time since once the depth is set it is locked in place with a setscrew

Just trying to learn, not trying to be a butthead

On the RCBS seater quality these were seated using a RCBS micrometer seating die @ 100 yards. Not exactly benchrest standards but I have less than $1200 in the action, stock, trigger, barrel and optics. It was a garage budget build I bet my son in law I could build a half MOA gun for less than 1500 with optics

 

[fantastic]

I use the Forster br micrometer seating dies for all my "accuracy" loads. Thats .223, 6.5 creedmoor, and 30-06. They are bery consistent and great quality for the price.

 

[ckaberna]

I recommend Wilson micrometer seater and Harrells FL bushing die for the 6BR. Either one of the wilsons will work but if you care about changing seating depths for testing or whatever, the micrometer is a must have just as others have pointed out. I have tested this set up against a redding competition set and reduced groups by approx..250". Possibly the way I had the redding set up??

 

[brxbrad]

Century 21 hydropress with Wilson die cut with your reamer is the only way to go

 

[Ccrider]

Century 21 hydropress with Wilson die cut with your reamer is the only way to go

Would not the reamer need to be a tad bit smaller at the base than the reamer used for the chamber?

 

[Fort_Bragger]

Honestly mine just sets on the shelf most of the time now but they do make a nice press for range development if you get the micrometer dies and are into such things. I have a conventional arbor and found I get a lot more "feel" when seating than with a normal press due to less mechanical advantage from the linkage. That's why I use dry lube now, makes for a smoother feel when seating. I found no difference in runout between seating in a normal press vs the arbor. Bullets are like electricity, water and people. They take the path of least resistance into that neck so the closer tolerances of the Wilson's neck chamber in the seating dies sounds nice but in reality does not accomplish anything.

I bought the conventional dies not the micrometers. I rarely change seating depths once a load is found and I can do load development with my conventional press and micrometer dies. Then I just use the chosen length to make a dummy bullet to set the Wilson seating die with

My exact experience too. I love Wilson Products, but after buying the arbor press and the Wilson Chamber Seater, I'm back to my RC Press and old original RCBS Dies. I even bought the VLD Stem from Wilson to try. I got out all my seating dies out, and ran them all through the dial concentric gage. The RCBS was the best of what I have. There's noting scientific about my test, but that's what I found.

 

[brxbrad]

Would not the reamer need to be a tad bit smaller at the base than the reamer used for the chamber?

 

[brxbrad]

I trust my gunsmith to make the appropriate adjustments as we discuss everything prior to cutting my chamber and dies.. Everything fits like a glove

 

[memilanuk]

Would not the reamer need to be a tad bit smaller at the base than the reamer used for the chamber?

Not for a seater

 

[oldroper]

German Salazar did a seating die test and the Redding competition seating dies came in first place and the Wilson die came in second place. The Redding and Forster competition seating dies were able to slightly correct case neck runout when seating the bullets.

Reloading: Seating Die Runout
Seating Die Induced Runout - A Comparison
by Germán A. Salazar
NOTE, the link below is in .pdf format so you will need Adobe reader.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjKuLz789XkAhWO2FkKHVBTD8YQFjAAegQIARAC&url=http://www.uniquetek.com/store/696296/uploaded/Reloading-Seating-Die-Runout.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0PTrUzbIFGXpTquMkz6CtT

The Rankings
And now, the moment you've been waiting for...

#1 - Redding Competition Seating Die (sliding sleeve type, threaded die)
The Redding, which I expected to finish high, did what I thought couldn't be done - it
produced rounds with an average runout that was less than the average case neck
runout of the brass used. In none of the ten rounds loaded did the Redding increase
the runout; it either held exactly the same or it decreased. The Redding, with an
Average Runout Change of -0.0003" is the winner. The negative sign, of course,
indicates a reduction in runout.

#2 - Wilson (chamber type, for arbor press)
I expected the Wilson to come out on top, given it's long-standing reputation as the
best seating die and its near universal use in Benchrest shooting. It didn't quite work
out that way, but the Wilson was very good, with only three rounds increasing runout
and an equal number decreasing, the remainder were zero-change. Wilson Average
Runout Change: +0.00015".

#3 - RCBS Standard Die (standard threaded die)
I expected the RCBS to be dead last, maybe by a big margin; was I ever wrong! I
was really surprised, quite pleasantly, by the RCBS die's performance. Three runout
increases, an equal number of decreases and four zero-change made for a very
creditable score. RCBS Average Runout Change: +0.00025".

#4 - Vickerman and Hornady (tie) (both partial sliding sleeve, neck only, threaded
dies)
These dies share a lot in common, being of universal use for a given caliber, in this
case, .30 caliber. You can seat bullets in anything from a .300 Savage to a .300
Winchester Magnum with these dies as they just capture the neck of the case in orderto align
it with the bullet. However, as your Economics professor taught you, there is no free lunch.
That universality of application reduces precision, though certainly not
to a level that would render them useless. With more increases in runout than
decreases, the Hornady lost ground. The Vickerman had a lot of zero-change rounds,
but increased 0.002" on a couple and that really hurt it's average performance. So,
the Hornady and Vickerman with an Average Runout Change of +0.0006",
bring up the rear - very much to my surprise. These are very useful dies, however
and let's keep some perspective, with an ARC of about half a thousandth, I wouldn't
be concerned about using them for Highpower match loading.

You might want to read this and see picture of German loading with Wilson seater
https://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek091.html

 

[1911nut]

This happened to me neck sizing with a Wilson bushing die with a Sinclair arbor press. Bullets seated with a Wilson die with the micrometer top.