To Turn Necks or Not ?

[mike a]

So the way I look at it is this, I spend several thousand dollars on a new rifle. I then spend 2-3K on a premium scope. Now add in the best components available in the world, they are not cheap either. I then spend a bunch of money for the most stable rest I can find. Don't forget to add in the expense of traveling long distances to matches. Then I sort my premium hand made bullets even though some say it isn't necessary, even weigh my primers. I refine even the smallest little things in my loading practices, after analyzing at all the processes, to promote extreme accuracy.

Now I'm going to take brass, which I can measure and see that it can be improved on, and leave it alone when my goal is to produce some of the most accurate ammunition in the world?

I'm sorry but that just isn't going to happen.

Dave.

So that's why the US economy is so good! Thank you Dave.

 

[Dave Way]

So that's why the US economy is so good! Thank you Dave.

I'm certainly doing my part, probably more than my part, but hey this is what I enjoy as my favorite hobby.

Dave.

 

[SHall]

So the way I look at it is this, I spend several thousand dollars on a new rifle. I then spend 2-3K on a premium scope. Now add in the best components available in the world, they are not cheap either. I then spend a bunch of money for the most stable rest I can find. Don't forget to add in the expense of traveling long distances to matches. Then I sort my premium hand made bullets even though some say it isn't necessary, even weigh my primers. I refine even the smallest little things in my loading practices, after analyzing at all the processes, to promote extreme accuracy.

Now I'm going to take brass, which I can measure and see that it can be improved on, and leave it alone when my goal is to produce some of the most accurate ammunition in the world?

I'm sorry but that just isn't going to happen.

Dave.

That is exactly what I thought for years and tried to tell myself and others until I put my THEORY to the test and PROVED MYSELF WRONG. This reminds me of when a great short range shooter told me a long time ago that nobody be knew weighed powder charges.They had found out years earlier that if you had a good thrower, it did not make a difference, so no one wasted time doing it anymore.
But, if you think turning necks helps accuracy, it surely will!

 

[Dave Way]

That is exactly what I thought for years and tried to tell myself and others until I put my THEORY to the test and PROVED MYSELF WRONG. This reminds me of when a great short range shooter told me a long time ago that nobody be knew weighed powder charges.They had found out years earlier that if you had a good thrower, it did not make a difference, so no one wasted time doing it anymore.
But, if you think turning necks helps accuracy, it surely will!

If you have proven this to yourself, good for you, I’m fine with that, but the mental part of this game should never be overlooked. Myself, when I go to the line, I want to know I have done everything within my power to make the best ammunition possible. I’m not sure what discipline you shoot but as far as I’m concerned, I believe in LR bench-rest it all matters. If it didn’t everyone would stop at Walmart on their way to the match and pick up their ammo for the day.

Good shooting,
Dave.

 

[SHall]

Dave, a very wise man once told me some words when I was young that I will never forget. “Son, know your source, your information is only as good as your source!”

 

[BartsBullets]

If you have proven this to yourself, good for you, I’m fine with that, but the mental part of this game should never be overlooked. Myself, when I go to the line, I want to know I have done everything within my power to make the best ammunition possible. I’m not sure what discipline you shoot but as far as I’m concerned, I believe in LR bench-rest it all matters. If it didn’t everyone would stop at Walmart on their way to the match and pick up their ammo for the day.

Good shooting,
Dave.

Dave,

Hunter3401 is a legend in 1000 and 600 yard Benchrest. Have you ever heard of Samual Hall?

I’ve shot short range for nearly 30 years. Lately I’ve been shooting a good bit of 600 yard Benchrest And occasionally a 1000 yard match. I’ve turned a lot of necks in my day.

Long story short I agree with everything Hunter3401 aka Sam Hall says. I’ve found that turned necks are no more accurate then nonturned as long as there is plenty of clearance (.003). I have tested it myself and frankly was surprised by the results.

Bart

 

[duanepa]

I agree. The mental part can be just as important in shooting as it is in other sports. I don’t mind neck turning, I may only do two at a time, so I don’t build up heat in the tool. 20-25 over a few sessions would be a large batch for me. To each, his own. When I look through the scope at a huge mess on my target, I always blame myself lol.

 

[johara1]

Ok, I am trying to understand the no turn thing,Do you guys sort the cases to get the most uniform or do you just load them right out of the box? then as much as dimensions change with Lapua what do you do then? I have had lot of brass from Lapua be over .003 different in neck thickness ...... this is one reason I turn necks..... jim

 

[Dave Way]

Dave,

Hunter3401 is a legend in 1000 and 600 yard Benchrest. Have you ever heard of Samual Hall?

I’ve shot short range for nearly 30 years. Lately I’ve been shooting a good bit of 600 yard Benchrest And occasionally a 1000 yard match. I’ve turned a lot of necks in my day.

Long story short I agree with everything Hunter3401 aka Sam Hall says. I’ve found that turned necks are no more accurate then nonturned as long as there is plenty of clearance (.003). I have tested it myself and frankly was surprised by the results.

Bart

Bart,

Now that is the reason I wish everyone would use their actual name but then again my response would not have changed irregardless of the source. With all due respect to you and Sam, I know you are both accomplished shooters, I appreciate your input but will continue to turn necks. No need for me to test this either and here is why.

Have you ever used one of these? It makes neck turning something I actually look forward to.



Sorry if I ruffled anyone’s feathers but I stand by my words.

Dave.

 

[BartsBullets]

Bart,

Now that is the reason I wish everyone would use their actual name but then again my response would not have changed irregardless of the source. With all due respect to you and Sam, I know you are both accomplished shooters, I appreciate your input but will continue to turn necks. No need for me to test this either and here is why.

Have you ever used one of these? It makes neck turning something I actually look forward to.

View attachment 1114765

Sorry if I ruffled anyone’s feathers but I stand by my words.

Dave.

That’s a nice set up! I’ve got a buddy that has one. But I’ve not used that particular one. But I am pretty hooked up for neck turning. 4 pumpkins, 2 K&Ms, 3 21st centuries along with a pumpkin neck checker and some nice micrometers for measuring and a very quite can barely here it run case lathe to turn them on.

For what it’s worth! Wether turned or Unturned make sure your bullet will easily slide through a fired case neck. If not you’ll get flyers. Clearance is the key with both methods.

Bart

 

[johara1]

When you guys are testing for group size does anyone check the build up in the flash holes?..... jim

 

[boltfluter]

With all due respect, why would you leave anything on the table by not turning the necks? Just my personal opinion, when looking for that last little bit of accuracy. Carry on.

Paul

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I dont trust many peoples test data. Sam has proven that he can shoot and tune well enough to test at a reliable level. I trust his data 100% and its one of the reasons I have chambered no turns for the BR cases. On the other hand theres no harm in turning and I still recommend it. Its kind of like sorting brass. I still have a 6 match agg thats never been beaten in any organization shot with un sorted cases. But if you feel like sorting brass you should. I realize I may have had a great lot of brass or just got lucky. Also, the farther the range the more starts to show up. Some of the stuff I have seen from the guys shooting groups at 2k has been a real eye opener. Bottom line is aggs are still getting smaller so if you feel like you can improve something, do it.
Of course this assumes your neck turning is up to par. You should have a hard time measuring the difference between them with a good .0001 ball mic. If your getting .0005, your probably not improving a good lot.

 

[BartsBullets]

With all due respect, why would you leave anything on the table by not turning the necks? Just my personal opinion, when looking for that last little bit of accuracy. Carry on.

Paul

Paul,

If I was leaving anything on the table I’d do it. 5 years ago if you asked this same question I would have said without a doubt you must turn necks, but shooting and test has shown me otherwise. Not to sound arrogant but I’m one of the very few people on this board that can shoot the difference testing at 100/200 yards.

I have proven to myself that I’m not leaving anything on the table. But to each their own. I’m not saying not to turn necks, I’ve just found it’s not necessary, if you have enough clearance. But that’s just a hard concept to accept, kind of counter intuitive!

To turn or not to turn? It’s a personal choice and I support both.

Bart

 

[X-Caveman]

Do you no turn guys work off the ID as a final sizing procedure? I've gotten in the habit of running a mandrel thru just before priming. Admittedly, I haven't tested to see if it makes a difference. It's just one of those things that makes sense to me/ makes me feel better. I can feel some may be looser than the norm, some may be tighter. I can set those aside for foulers, or discard. .2405" has been my size of choice lately for the 6BR/ BRA.

 

[jimmymac]

Paul,

If I was leaving anything on the table I’d do it. 5 years ago if you asked this same question I would have said without a doubt you must turn necks, but shooting and test has shown me otherwise. Not to sound arrogant but I’m one of the very few people on this board that can shoot the difference testing at 100/200 yards.

I have proven to myself that I’m not leaving anything on the table. But to each their own. I’m not saying not to turn necks, I’ve just found it’s not necessary, if you have enough clearance. But that’s just a hard concept to accept, kind of counter intuitive!

To turn or not to turn? It’s a personal choice and I support both.

Bart

This thread is very interesting for me as I wade my through the ins and outs of the short range game.

It sounds like you came to the no turn neck once you ventured in to long range competition. Since you are a very accomplished short range shooter, have you gone the no turn route with your short range rigs too?

Thanks...

 

[BartsBullets]

This thread is very interesting for me as I wade my through the ins and outs of the short range game.

It sounds like you came to the no turn neck once you ventured in to long range competition. Since you are a very accomplished short range shooter, have you gone the no turn route with your short range rigs too?

Thanks...

Jimmy

No I haven’t but not because I don’t think it would work, but it would be a giant pain in the butt! All of my very custom stuff like bullet seater and Full length die would have to be re-done.

Also several of us are on the “Program” where we use the same reamer, bullets, powders! So at a match several of us are working to figure out the tune and what seating depth is working. Kind of a Wolf pack! Or Hunter Killer Team. So it’s hard to get off the reservation!

Bart

 

[johara1]

I dont trust many peoples test data. Sam has proven that he can shoot and tune well enough to test at a reliable level. I trust his data 100% and its one of the reasons I have chambered no turns for the BR cases. On the other hand theres no harm in turning and I still recommend it. Its kind of like sorting brass. I still have a 6 match agg thats never been beaten in any organization shot with un sorted cases. But if you feel like sorting brass you should. I realize I may have had a great lot of brass or just got lucky. Also, the farther the range the more starts to show up. Some of the stuff I have seen from the guys shooting groups at 2k has been a real eye opener. Bottom line is aggs are still getting smaller so if you feel like you can improve something, do it.
Of course this assumes your neck turning is up to par. You should have a hard time measuring the difference between them with a good .0001 ball mic. If your getting .0005, your probably not improving a good lot.

Alex, why would it matter to turn to a .0001 when I don't see neck thickness on Lapua holding a .0005 and saying that no turn is more accurate? Am I missing something?..... jim

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Jim, what I said is that a good turned neck will be to the .0001" if your not doing a good job on your turning its not worth doing, imo. I also have not said that a no turn is more accurate. Its not something I even plan to test. I turn almost everything and I know even if I did a no turn every time I got an unexplained shot it would bother me and Id end up turning them anyhow. Its just not that big of a deal to me to turn some necks. However, Sam's experience as well as others makes me more comfortable to chamber no turns for those who want them.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Something to ponder, we are 8 targets into the 10 target 1kyd agg at deep creek and the 2 smallest aggs in LG for 8 targets are .001" apart.