Stole/Panda Barrel Swap

[Nick Caprinolo]

I have a Stole/Panda, 6 PPC rifle. I am thinking of having the bolt face opened to accommodate a 30 BR cartridge and barrel. I have been told that by doing this I can switch barrels at will and shoot both calibers.

This brings up a lot of questions in my mind. Is changing barrels back and forth as simple as unscrewing one and simple screwing the other in it's place? What about head space? Will a no turn neck on the 30 BR be as accurate as one turned down?

Nick

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

A 30 Major is a 6.5 Grendel necked up and shares the same bolt face as a ppc. It's a proven cartridge and really makes sense vs opening the bolt or rebating rims imo.

 

[Ggmac]

I was using a 30 PPC Ackley about 20 yrs ago and still shoot it . I've got a longer neck and a 35 deg shoulder . I still shoot it . It started as a 7.62-39 I proved with a 308 bore . Then I had a new reamer made and am very happy with its performance. I have a 30 br and a 30 Br Ackley . I like the smaller PPC case .

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

I have a Stole/Panda

Stolle. As in Ralph Stolle.

Is changing barrels back and forth as simple as unscrewing one and simple screwing the other in it's place?

Yes.

What about head space?

All Pandas in original condition have the same headspace dimension (and the same thread start position). The 'smith set the headspace when the barrel was fitted/chambered. If the mating surfaces on the barrel and action are clean the headspace will return to the set dimension just by screwing the barrel in until the barrel shoulder and action face meet.

Will a no turn neck on the 30 BR be as accurate as one turned down?

Essentially everyone who shoots the 30BR competitively turns necks. Only you can determine whether you need that level of precision.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I was using a 30 PPC Ackley about 20 yrs ago and still shoot it . I've got a longer neck and a 35 deg shoulder . I still shoot it . It started as a 7.62-39 I proved with a 308 bore . Then I had a new reamer made and am very happy with its performance. I have a 30 br and a 30 Br Ackley . I like the smaller PPC case .

I've tried just about all x39 brass to form with but have never found any that takes pressure anywhere near the Lapua Grendel brass. It's excellent and makes forming as simple as necking it up.
On that point and to the op's question regarding turn or no-turn necks...I've long lived by the rule of, if I neck up or down, I turn necks. I recently broke this rule after necking Grendel brass DOWN to 6mm though and it seems to be working extremely well. This in an Unlimited class BR rifle. It necks down to 6mm easily and the cases stay very nice and straight. If I were going to do a no turn 30 version, I'd neck up with the cream of wheat/tissue method.

I've necked up a bunch of these cases for both bench rifles and gas guns. If for a gas gun, you can simply use a redding 6-30 expander button and do it in one step, easy enough but the necks aren't as straight as if I fire the neck out to size. For a no turn 30 Major using Lapua brass, I'd do a .336 chamber and either rattle a smaller bullet down a fire form barrel or use the cow method.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Stolle. As in Ralph Stolle.



Yes.



All Pandas in original condition have the same headspace dimension (and the same thread start position). The 'smith set the headspace when the barrel was fitted/chambered. If the mating surfaces on the barrel and action are clean the headspace will return to the set dimension just by screwing the barrel in until the barrel shoulder and action face meet.



Essentially everyone who shoots the 30BR competitively turns necks. Only you can determine whether you need that level of precision.

I agree on everything but one point. Pandas have been around for a while. I'm not sure when they started clocking the thread but they are not ALL in the same spot. The early ones were not cnc machined and I'm pretty sure they only started clocking where the threads start a few years ago...maybe 10 or so. But yes, the new ones do clock well with one another.

 

[Ggmac]

I've tried just about all x39 brass to form with but have never found any that takes pressure anywhere near the Lapua Grendel brass. It's excellent and makes forming as simple as necking it up.
On that point and to the op's question regarding turn or no-turn necks...I've long lived by the rule of, if I neck up or down, I turn necks. I recently broke this rule after necking Grendel brass DOWN to 6mm though and it seems to be working extremely well. This in an Unlimited class BR rifle. It necks down to 6mm easily and the cases stay very nice and straight. If I were going to do a no turn 30 version, I'd neck up with the cream of wheat/tissue method.

I've necked up a bunch of these cases for both bench rifles and gas guns. If for a gas gun, you can simply use a redding 6-30 expander button and do it in one step, easy enough but the necks aren't as straight as if I fire the neck out to size. For a no turn 30 Major using Lapua brass, I'd do a .336 chamber and either rattle a smaller bullet down a fire form barrel or use the cow method.

I started this project when I had a large quantity of Lapua 7.63-39 ammo , excellent ammo and of course brass . I was just fireforming then , down the rabbit hole I went . After the ammo was gone of course

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have a Stole/Panda, 6 PPC rifle. I am thinking of having the bolt face opened to accommodate a 30 BR cartridge and barrel. I have been told that by doing this I can switch barrels at will and shoot both calibers.

This brings up a lot of questions in my mind. Is changing barrels back and forth as simple as unscrewing one and simple screwing the other in it's place? What about head space? Will a no turn neck on the 30 BR be as accurate as one turned down?

Nick

It can be opened up, Kelbly's will do it or you smith can. Changing a barrel is just as simple as screwing it on. You dont have to worry about headspace, your gunsmith sets that. The way I look at no turns is they could potentially equal a turned neck for accuracy. But the way that .001" in a neck bushing change can sometimes drastically change a group, I could never personally go no-turn for a serious competition rifle.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

It can be opened up, Kelbly's will do it or you smith can. Changing a barrel is just as simple as screwing it on. You dont have to worry about headspace, your gunsmith sets that. The way I look at no turns is they could potentially equal a turned neck for accuracy. But the way that .001" in a neck bushing change can sometimes drastically change a group, I could never personally go no-turn for a serious competition rifle.

I agree but the small 30's typically like a lot of neck tension and jam, which IMO, both lessen how critical consistent neck tension is, within reason of course. A half thou means a lot if you're set up for a thou of tension but if jammed hard anyway, I think that a half thou or less gets lost in the noise of running closer to say .004 tension and the thicker neck seems to offer more tension over a wider range than a thin one. It's certainly a much smaller percentage of .004 than of .001, for example. I'm not advocating for cutting corners but the target tells the tale of what works and what doesn't more than anything we read on the net. Those of us with much experience with the small 30's will mostly agree that they are very forgiving to things that affect tune, as compared to most anything out there.

The 30BR is an excellent cartridge, as is the 30 Major..or Grendel. Virtually every shooter in the world, at every match..everywhere, for 40 years, tried to beat the record for small group at 100, held by a 222 with a 6ppc... until Mike Stinnett did it only a few years after the advent of a 30 Major, with Ralph Stewart's version of it that is a few thou shorter than my original design.
All records are to some degree a fluke but not really either, as he kicked butt all year long before breaking that 40 year old record. Chance favors the prepared and well equipped! He was definitely both. Those little 30s can shoot!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I dont disagree. Most of my experience is long range and I do prefer a lot of neck tension and load in the lands for the most part. The difference between .004 and .005 can be huge sometimes. Other times not so much. Some are even having success at long range with no turns. But if I am going to sort cases by neck thickness, Id rather just turn them. I like watching how they cut any ways. I always set up my reamers for a minimal turn to preserve brass thickness though.

 

[ebb]

I do too (like watching how they cut), but would never have had the stones to say it out loud if not for you.

 

[joshb]

I have a Stole/Panda, 6 PPC rifle. I am thinking of having the bolt face opened to accommodate a 30 BR cartridge and barrel. I have been told that by doing this I can switch barrels at will and shoot both calibers.

This brings up a lot of questions in my mind. Is changing barrels back and forth as simple as unscrewing one and simple screwing the other in it's place? What about head space? Will a no turn neck on the 30 BR be as accurate as one turned down?

Nick

Hi Nick: I have a couple guns that are set up to “switch barrels” on. It’s easy. I can show you on Thursday. I bought a Hall with two barrels. 6ppc and 30 br. It was set up a little differently. He had the 30br brass turned down to fit the ppc boltface! Easy peazy! DJ’s brass could do that for you AND turn your brass at the same time.

 

[vahena]

Just give Kelblys a call and the serial # of your action, I have one and the action goes back to 1995, I forget the cutoff date but they can tell you. and they can make you a barrel without your action and fits perfectly.
Rob

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I do too (like watching how they cut), but would never have had the stones to say it out loud if not for you.

You can tell a little about thickness variations when cutting. Just one more thing to sort.

 

[ebb]

Even Lapua is not perfect in the thickness of the neck. I cut some 6.5-284s and wanted only a clean up cut. some were cut all the way some were not.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Even Lapua is not perfect in the thickness of the neck. I cut some 6.5-284s and wanted only a clean up cut. some were cut all the way some were not.

I agree....and if you believe it matters, then it most certainly does. But the target tells the tale, for better or worse. As I said in a previous post, I recently converted a tight neck min turn chamber to a no turn, to test for any difference I could see on paper. I couldn't see a bit of difference and it was humming both before and after. I have another new blank coming next week and will likely do the same on it, start at min turn, then open the neck and compare.
I've seen improvement in the past by doing it just the opposite way, so I don't disagree in many cases. This is a 30lb unlimited br rifle chambered in 6 Grendel. Going down from 6.5 to 6mm doesn't move the brass a lot and it comes out very straight and uniform, in this particular case. I've always been a believer in turning necks, particularly when necking up or down but in the case of this brass and barrel, I just couldn't see any difference and it was flat shooting great right before the barrel laid down. It was an older barrel that I tested this on. It went down all at once, started coppering and shooting in the .4s from an honest teen rifle. I will say this...If it pans out to suit me, it sure is nice not turning necks! I really despise that boring job but have done it for years and years...and will still if I can see ANY benefit on paper.

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

Hi Nick: I have a couple guns that are set up to “switch barrels” on. It’s easy. I can show you on Thursday. I bought a Hall with two barrels. 6ppc and 30 br. It was set up a little differently. He had the 30br brass turned down to fit the ppc boltface! Easy peazy! DJ’s brass could do that for you AND turn your brass at the same time.

Josh
I like the idea of not having to turn the bolt face down. I had 100 6 PPC brass finished by DJ's which I have not used yet and his service is really great and the turn around is fast. Buying a new barrel is a lot cheaper that a new rifle and I won't need to invest in a new scope either. Looking forward to seeing you on Thursday.

 

[joshb]

OK Nick: We’ll spend some time on scopes and some time in the shop.
I’ll warn you up front. My shop is a messy, dusty, crowded, jammed up with wood work area! It’s not for the faint of heart!
Josh

 

[jimmymac]

I'm no gunsmith, but when I spoke to the good folks at Kelbly's they assured me that once they opened up the bolt face I'd still be able to pull PPC cases. My gunsmith also tells me the same thing. It's not an expensive job either. Less than $100.

 

[jimmymac]

... until Mike Stinnett did it only a few years after the advent of a 30 Major, with Ralph Stewart's version of it that is a few thou shorter than my original design.
All records are to some degree a fluke but not really either, as he kicked butt all year long before breaking that 40 year old record. Chance favors the prepared and well equipped! He was definitely both. Those little 30s can shoot!

That really is an amazing target.