A 204 Dilemma

[2dogs]

Sometime back, I declared the .223 AI King of the Prairie Dog fields.

I was promptly informed by the 20 caliber crowd that I was missing the boat! I try not to be a moron. This is such an informed forum I just knew there was something I was missing so I bought me a 204 Ruger Remington 700. I dropped it in a synthetic stock, upgraded the trigger, added a CDI bottom metal with a 10 shot AI magazine and figured I was all set.

I set up my chrono and ran some 32 grain Hornady ammo over the screens and was surprised/disappointed that the speeds were in the low 3800's. More, the thing had some muzzle jump and was going to need a muzzle brake or I was going to need a spotter. The only plus was the accuracy was some 3/8" at 100 give or take.

Here is a little background. I live on the gulf coast of Texas. Windy days are a fact of life here. You learn to shoot in the wind or you stay at home and watch TV. My prairie dog rifles are repeaters with bottom metal that supports 10 shot magazines and they all have muzzle brakes save one that's a bit of a fat gal. So I don't need a spotter, I can see my bullet impacts and I can get on a mound and stay on it until it's a graveyard without getting off the scope.

I am pretty sure the problem with my Remington .204 is that the throat is soooo long the propellant gasses are passing the projectile thus the poor chrono readings. I shoot 40 grain bullets in my 223 AIs. Fire form 223 AI loads run about 3800+ and the improved stuff is 4000 in one rifle and I can get 4200 in the other. I know all about the BC and the tables and such but I can tell you for a fact it takes a whole lot of all of that to out run SPEED. I don't want a 204 to shoot 39 grain bullets at 37-3800 fps.

So, what are my options? Keep in mind, I want my alternative to run smoothly from a 10 shot magazine please....I am totally open to the Vartag and the other mini twenties if they will do that.

Set the barrel back and rechamber to .204? This will certainly shorten the throat but what are the chances I will get a "step" in the neck?

I realize the .204 is already semi "improved" but I wonder if the neck could be shortened and the shoulder blown forward just a bit to gain enough to make the 39's go 4000 fps?

I hate to yank the barrel off, it's pretty accurate for a factory unit. What other rechamber options are out there?

Last, could I be misdiagnosing this malady?

 

[varget204]

You did not say what twist barrel is, and what length.Anything you can do w/ 32 grain bullets to 200 yards,you can do a Lot Better with 39.or 40 grain bullets,A 32 grain factory bullet at 4200 fps, is Slower than a 40 grain factory bullet at 38-3900 fps at about 225-250 yards,if your loading 40 grainer's at 37-3750,they are faster,less drop/drift than 32 grainer.I shoot thousands of round out of 204 ruger at 500 to 1000 yards.A 204 w/ 40 grain bullets at 600 yards has a Lot less Drop,and wind drift than a .223.I shoot 39 gr B. Kings out to 650 yards at 38-3850 fps,anything farther i shoot 40 grain bullets at 37-3850 fps depending on powder used.Most 204's like a jump,most have a long lead,because to get factory 32's over 4000 fps,they had to lengthen freebore to lower pressures.If your wanting to shoot long range you ned minumum 24",preferably 26" barrel,doesn't have to be Hvy barrel,i have 2-26"# 5 bull sporter barrels that are .700 at muzzle.

 

[2dogs]

It's a Remington factory Varmint 26" and most likely a 1 in 12. So you are saying the 39 grain 20 caliber bullet will overtake the 32 caliber bullet inside 250 yards? That's something I didn't know.

I'm already running 40's in both my 1/14" 223AI's at 4000 plus, and my 1/8" twist 223 AI will run the 53 V max at 3750 fps plus I have a 1/9" twist 223 AI as well.

I would have to say based on your post the most likely comparison for me would be the 223 AI 53 grain V Max at 3725 fps vs the 204 with the 39 Blitz King at 38-3850 fps.

I also have rifles in 22-250 AI, 6BR, 6X, and they just go up in caliber from there. It's just from all the hype, I guess I expected more speed and less recoil from my 204.

 

[17VLD]

I always thought the reason Hornady made the 53 V-Max was to let 22cf shooters gain back some of what the 20 caliber shooters were talking about.Better b.c. translates to better energy out where the dogs are and of course less drift too.But as you go up in weight you gain muzzle jump,no free lunch.As I’ve said in other posts a 20 caliber 36 grain poly tipped bullet would really help a lot of guys with 12 twist 204s,less muzzle flip more speed and a decent b.c.The 20 caliber 40 grain V-Max is a great bullet and has a good b.c.at .275 but a lot of rifles in 12 twist can’t shoot it well.If it was me I would try the 39 Sierra and some Rel10X and work your way up carefully,I bet you will see what all the “hype” is about then
Matt

 

[Hotshot]

I think you need to compare apples to apples. If you are pleased with 40 grain 22 cal bullets I know you aren't shooting over 400 yards. Obviously you can't buy factory 223 AI ammo that performs at that velocity.
So re-barrel your 204 with 11 twist and reload your own ammo to the same pressure as the 223. You'll get more than 4200 fps with 30-32 grain bullets and they will be true 500 yard performers. The bc of 39-40 grain 20 cal bullets perform well to over 600 yards. That out performs my 220Swift with 55 grain bullets.
I use a slightly heavier taper barrel and don't notice any muzzle jump.
We shoot many prairie dogs at 200-400 yards. I can't tell much difference between the 204 and 223 AI at those ranges. Both are a lot of fun. But I don't have to fireform 204R brass

 

[Ledd Slinger]

The 204 Ruger neck is already short enough so improving it further would be a bad idea. I push the 39gr BK at 4000 fps in my 204R using RL15, but I had to use a 26" barrel.

If you want even faster for whatever reason, have a look into the 20 BR variant Wildcats (based on 6mm BR cases) or the 20 PPC/Grendel variants.

 

[jepp2]

It's a Remington factory Varmint 26" and most likely a 1 in 12.

That is what it will say on paper, but not necessarily what it will measure. I had 2 Rem in 204R. 12T on paper, the older one is 13.25T and the newer one is 9.5T. Once I learned what the newer one twist was, I changed to the 39/40 gr bullets and accuracy improved dramatically.

 

[Clancy]

I’d call Hunter Phillips at HP Precision in Midland and have him chamber you up a 204 or 20 Practical. He has spent a lot of time working on those reamer designs and it really shows.

 

[chuckshooter]

I assume in your post you're talking about Factory ammo, I think most people experience the opposite. Factory 32gr ammo delivers 4200 feet per second, and they have a difficult time duplicating that in hand loads. First things first. Verify the speed, some chronographs don't read 20 caliber bullet as easily as 22 caliber.. second, try different ammo. Third, clean and borescope the barrel, looking for anything that could be affecting speed and verify the twist. I would not give up yet on a barrel that produces great accuracy but slow speeds. In my younger days , speed was what I wanted. After rebarreling a handful of 220 Swifts, and 4 204's s. I'm okay if they shoot a little slower.

 

[Evan]

I also have rifles in 22-250 AI, 6BR, 6X, and they just go up in caliber from there. It's just from all the hype, I guess I expected more speed and less recoil from my 204.

Same bullet weight, same speed, same energy. Barrel length, stock configuration, and weight will affect how it recoils and handles. Is your 204 a lighter, shorter rifle than your 223?

 

[drover]

2dogs,

Let me be upfront about this - I am an unabashed 223 fan, I have been shooting it since acquiring my first 223 rifle in 1970 and have literally fired tens of thousands of rounds of it. I can see my hits just fine with the 40 gr, I have shot the 223 enough that I am familiar with the drops and wind drift which may be a bit more than the 204 but not enough for it to be an issue.
The drop and drift is not all that much different between the 204 and 223 using 40 gr bullets until past 300 yards, and if you are familiar with the drop and drift from a 223 shooting past 300 yds is not really an issue.

Below is my experience with the 204 and the reason I choose the 223 over the 204.

I bought into the 204 Koolaid early on - I already had a Cooper Varminter in 223 then I bought an identical Cooper Varminter in 204. The first thing I noticed was that the recoil using 40 gr bullets was identical to the 223 using 40 gr bullets, in retrospect I should not have really been surprised about it though because the powder charge for the 204 and 223 are virtually identical, the bullet weights are the same, and the rifles were the same, including scopes, the rifle weights were within one ounce of each other. Still hopeful, I tried the 32 gr bullets and the recoil was slightly less but hardly enough to make a noticeable difference.
I used JBM Ballisics and ran the numbers on it and the recoil for the 204 and 223 with 40 gr bullets is identical, the recoil with the 32 gr is only a half-pound ft-lb less.

I chronographed the 32 and 40 gr bullets out of the 204 and was unable to reach advertised velocities with either of them, the 32's were less than 4000 fps and the 40's were right at 3750 fps from the 204, the same velocity I get from my 223 with the 40's. These velocities were using top-end load manual data, I know some folks will claim more but I will bet that they are exceeding load manual recommendations doing it.

The only way to get away from the recoil and rifle jump is to go to one of the smaller 20 calibers such as the VarTarg, use a break, or build a heavier rifle. With the VarTarg and similar cartridges you get into the lack of brass issue, the brass forming, etc. Too much trouble for me, I prefer to keep things simple and concentrate on trigger time instead. If I were to ever try another 20 it would be the VarTarg - that is where the 20 shines but then it less velocity, more drop and wind drift than my 223 has.

I sold my 204 bought more bullets and powder for my 223 and lived happily ever after.

Moral of the story - there are no free lunches.

drover

 

[B23]

Larger bore, equal weight bullets and same amount of powder burnt, the velocity winner will be the one with the larger bore. On the flip side, smaller bore with equal weight bullet/s and the BC advantage goes back to the smaller bore.

If you are having trouble spotting your own shots you can either have a muzzle brake installed or go through the process of getting yourself into suppressor ownership. I shoot nearly everything suppressed and what I don't shoot suppressed I have a muzzle brake on.

If I had a factory gun that shot factory ammo under .5 MOA or as the OP describes his gun shooting 3/8 at 100 which is well under .5 MOA I certainly wouldn't be squabbling about 150 fps and instead would be thanking the gun gods I was able to purchase a factory gun that shoots off the shelf ammo into 3/8 groups because that is a near unicorn. I have a $5,000+ full custom Kelbly that won't do that with factory ammo, and you want to mess with it for 150-ish fps?! I think you should just be VERY thankful and call it good.

 

[Evan]

I have a love affair with the 20 vartarg. It does SO much with so little. Highly recommended! Oh and for mass brass, go to sleeping giant and buy his Lake city reformed 20 vartarg brass at 40 bucks per hundred.

Back to scheduled programming: the 204 burns out barrels faster than a 223 to approximate 22-250 performance with 223 recoil. At the end of the day though, it's not a big improvement on either and I'd only encourage it in specific circumstances.

I think a 20 practical makes more sense for most people, cause brass is so much more plentiful and cheaper. Although my heart lies with the 20 vartarg: shoot 50 rounds through it at a continuous, moderate pace and the barrel is barely warm. 18-20gns of powder means you get about 400 rounds from a pound of powder, and unlike many powders, the good ones for the vartarg have always been in stock around me: reloader 7, a2200, h4198, ramshot xterminator, etc.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

2dogs,

Let me be upfront about this - I am an unabashed 223 fan, I have been shooting it since acquiring my first 223 rifle in 1970 and have literally fired tens of thousands of rounds of it. I can see my hits just fine with the 40 gr, I have shot the 223 enough that I am familiar with the drops and wind drift which may be a bit more than the 204 but not enough for it to be an issue.
The drop and drift is not all that much different between the 204 and 223 using 40 gr bullets until past 300 yards, and if you are familiar with the drop and drift from a 223 shooting past 300 yds is not really an issue.

Below is my experience with the 204 and the reason I choose the 223 over the 204.

I bought into the 204 Koolaid early on - I already had a Cooper Varminter in 223 then I bought an identical Cooper Varminter in 204. The first thing I noticed was that the recoil using 40 gr bullets was identical to the 223 using 40 gr bullets, in retrospect I should not have really been surprised about it though because the powder charge for the 204 and 223 are virtually identical, the bullet weights are the same, and the rifles were the same, including scopes, the rifle weights were within one ounce of each other. Still hopeful, I tried the 32 gr bullets and the recoil was slightly less but hardly enough to make a noticeable difference.
I used JBM Ballisics and ran the numbers on it and the recoil for the 204 and 223 with 40 gr bullets is identical, the recoil with the 32 gr is only a half-pound ft-lb less.

I chronographed the 32 and 40 gr bullets out of the 204 and was unable to reach advertised velocities with either of them, the 32's were less than 4000 fps and the 40's were right at 3750 fps from the 204, the same velocity I get from my 223 with the 40's. These velocities were using top-end load manual data, I know some folks will claim more but I will bet that they are exceeding load manual recommendations doing it.

The only way to get away from the recoil and rifle jump is to go to one of the smaller 20 calibers such as the VarTarg, use a break, or build a heavier rifle. With the VarTarg and similar cartridges you get into the lack of brass issue, the brass forming, etc. Too much trouble for me, I prefer to keep things simple and concentrate on trigger time instead. If I were to ever try another 20 it would be the VarTarg - that is where the 20 shines but then it less velocity, more drop and wind drift than my 223 has.

I sold my 204 bought more bullets and powder for my 223 and lived happily ever after.

Moral of the story - there are no free lunches.

drover

If you dont plan on shooting much past 300 yards then theres really no reason to go 20 cal as the 223 will be fine. But the 20 caliber "Kool-aid" is the real deal at longer ranges.

If you want to stretch it out, my 204 Ruger can put up some pretty nice groups with 39gr BKs at 600 to 800 yards if the wind is behaving. And as stated before, I achieve 4,000 fps using RL15. Nothing against the 223, but that round with 40gr bullets doesnt stand a chance against the 204R at distances of 600 yards and beyond.

 

[drover]

I will disagree. Although the 204 40 gr has a better ballistic co-efficient than the 223 40 gr it is not as significant as often thought, and it is not really that much of an issue if the user is familiar with the trajectory and drift of the 223 40 gr.

I was never able to achieve more than 3750 - 3800 fps with the 204 40 gr using load manual data, if you are getting 4000 fps you are exceeding load manual data. Interesting enough RL-15 does not publish data for the 204 using RL 15 so this must be your own recipe.

But back to the real subject - when starting the 40 gr bullet out of a 204 and 223 at equal velocity - 3750 - 3800 fps - using data from load manual they perform like this:

204 @ 600 yds / 10 mph wind - drop 60.8 inch / drift 9.7 inch

223 @ 600 yds / 10 mph wind - drop 65.2 inch / drift 10.4

A difference of 4.4 inch in drop and 0.7 inch in drift.

Yes, the 204 40 gr has a bit less drop and drift but hardly enough to be an issue to a shooter familiar with the trajectory of the 223 40 gr.


drover

 

[2dogs]

I think you need to compare apples to apples. If you are pleased with 40 grain 22 cal bullets I know you aren't shooting over 400 yards. Obviously you can't buy factory 223 AI ammo that performs at that velocity.
So re-barrel your 204 with 11 twist and reload your own ammo to the same pressure as the 223. You'll get more than 4200 fps with 30-32 grain bullets and they will be true 500 yard performers. The bc of 39-40 grain 20 cal bullets perform well to over 600 yards. That out performs my 220Swift with 55 grain bullets.
I use a slightly heavier taper barrel and don't notice any muzzle jump.
We shoot many prairie dogs at 200-400 yards. I can't tell much difference between the 204 and 223 AI at those ranges. Both are a lot of fun. But I don't have to fireform 204R brass

Hotshot, thanks for your thoughts. Most people are pretty hung up on BC and haven't actually done the range work but my testing shows my 223 AI's with 40 grain NBT's print 2 1/2" groups at 500 yards and hold up pretty well beyond that. Believe me I was quite surprised when I first tried it. More, I think they hit harder than the heavier 22 caliber bullets farther out but that's just me. This of course is shooting side by side with my big brother who is another heavy bullet guy.

 

[2dogs]

The 204 Ruger neck is already short enough so improving it further would be a bad idea. I push the 39gr BK at 4000 fps in my 204R using RL15, but I had to use a 26" barrel.

If you want even faster for whatever reason, have a look into the 20 BR variant Wildcats (based on 6mm BR cases) or the 20 PPC/Grendel variants.

Noted. Thank you. I have plenty RL15. You guys convinced me to give it another shot. I got onto Midway and ordered a bunch more components including some 39 grain Sierras. I wonder if you would PM me your load if I promise to use all due caution not to bend my bolt....?

 

[Evan]

By my reckoning using JBM, a 10 yard error at 600 (doping for 600, but it's actually 610) results in a 223, 40vmax, 3800fps, missing by 5 inches. A 204, 40vmax, 3800fps, misses by 3 inches. If you're shooting Prarie dogs at 600, then the 204 is going to have a significant advantage in drop. Agree that wind difference is negligable.

 

[2dogs]

I always thought the reason Hornady made the 53 V-Max was to let 22cf shooters gain back some of what the 20 caliber shooters were talking about.Better b.c. translates to better energy out where the dogs are and of course less drift too.But as you go up in weight you gain muzzle jump,no free lunch.As I’ve said in other posts a 20 caliber 36 grain poly tipped bullet would really help a lot of guys with 12 twist 204s,less muzzle flip more speed and a decent b.c.The 20 caliber 40 grain V-Max is a great bullet and has a good b.c.at .275 but a lot of rifles in 12 twist can’t shoot it well.If it was me I would try the 39 Sierra and some Rel10X and work your way up carefully,I bet you will see what all the “hype” is about then
Matt

Matt, my No3 223 AI is a 27" 1/8" that does 3725 fps with the 53 V Max. I haven't had a whole lot of time to explore that load but I suppose it would be interesting to see how it all shakes out. As I said in another post, I ordered a bunch of components to work with the 204 a bit more based on all of your good thoughts. I didn't see any 36 grain tipped poly's but the 34 grain Dog Town bullets were 12-13 bucks for 100 and I figure if they ain't prairie dog worthy maybe they will land on a jackrabbit. Will check the powder stores for RL10.

 

[2dogs]

That is what it will say on paper, but not necessarily what it will measure. I had 2 Rem in 204R. 12T on paper, the older one is 13.25T and the newer one is 9.5T. Once I learned what the newer one twist was, I changed to the 39/40 gr bullets and accuracy improved dramatically.

Again, news to me. Thanks. You guys are the best. I will have to check and see exactly what I have.