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.308 load for an odd rifle

So I am starting to work up a load for my new .308. That is to say that I have cleaned and prepped 100 pieces of lake city LR brass. This rifle will mainly be used for shooting groups from the prone 300 yds and closer. I plan to take it to 600-1000 yds every once in a while for local matches. I would love to have 1 load for target and to shoot the occasional eastern whitetail. Generally they weigh less than 130LBS. However, I am not opposed to having two loads for the rifle.

The rifle
Remington 700 SA .308
Blue printed action
Hart 18" barrel with a 1-14 twist. I know, very slow. Heavy with an M40 contour.
McMillan A5 Stock

I am thinking of shooting a 145-155 GN bullet given the slow twist rate. I would prefer to shoot a Spitzer boat tail. I have looked at both Nosler ballistic tip varmint or SMK.

I cant decide between Varget or IMR 4064 for powder. I can use 4064 in my other rifles if the .308 does not agree with it.

Any help would be great and much appreciated.

R/S
Adam
 
I would try the Sierra TMK, or Lapua Scenars. With a near max load of Varget. Work up to what your rifle shoots best. I used the Lapua bullets long ago and the rifle was darn flat shooting. I got 2950 from a 26 inch barrel.
 
18" is still doable for a 308; though for that twist and those powders you may be pushing the bullet weight a little.

I've been happy with 4064 in a 24" with 155-175s; though for a shorter barrel I would suggest something a little faster. Varget and 4064 are quite close; Say h335, maybe benchmark or h322. Beauty of 308 win; all of those powders have produced excellent results with 145-155.

I'll also add if you're going 1000y with an 18"; skip ahead to the 185 hybrid and in that case 4064 may be just right.

-Mac
 
My approach will be a bit different here.

I have 24” 1:11.25. I shoot 155 Scenar with max charge of 4166. Even with xtra velocity I’ll have over your 18”, the combination struggles in any kind of less than ideal conditions once ranges exceed 800 or so. 175s are my friend for really long range.

Not a criticism, you’ll be handicapped on velocity and on twist.

However, your rig should be quite stiff, and with a Hart bbl, should have exceptional accuracy.

155 Scenar is tricky. I just don’t know if it will work in your 1:14.

HOWEVER, 155 Nosler CC, 155 Amax, and any 150 or 155 traditional hunting projectile should work well.

I’d encourage you to develop two loads. First, a 155 LR, high bc target bullet load with 4064, Varget, 4166, RL15 or CFE223.

Second, a fun load. May I strongly suggest H322 w/150 or 155 cup & core hunting bullet (or 155 CC or AMAX). Accuracy should be nothing short of exceptional, recoil will be drastically less than load #1, and only thing lacking will be velocity (probably 2400 or so). Google H322 for 308, there is published data. I settled on 38.0 exceptional in Sauer 200 & Remington 20” PSS, 38.2 exceptional in Ruger M77 26”. This is a load you’ll have tremendous fun with and it will win you bets too.
 
I think the 18" Barrel is a bit of a handicap ?
14 twist and 155 gr Bullets is a good way to start.
LC Brass has a little less capacity ? You will see PSI with 4166 ??
We tried it for our Palma Rifles 1-12 30" and 32" Barrels , Not able to get Vol. of Varget ….. PSI

I would stay with 4064 , 4320 or Varget . In a Palma Rifle with 155 class Bullets the Old Standard was 2984 FPS
Now it is 3018 = or - to get them to 1000 yards Super Sonic ????

Best of Luck
 
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1:14 is too slow a twist for many modern 155s - the 155 Scenar, newer SMK (#2156), TMK and suchlike. The older SMK (#2155) shoots well in this twist rate as does the vintage 168gn MK. The latter would be an excellent choice for 300 yards, but forget it beyond 600 especially at 18-inch barrel MVs. For short range, Berger makes a 150gn flat-base HPM and Sierra a 125gn HPM flat-base (designed for the 300 Blackout). They should do very well at 300.
 
So in short, I should not expect much with this gun past 300yds? That is unfortunate, but not the end of the world as most of the shooting I will be doing will be inside 300yds.

I was choosing the lighter 150-155 bullets as I thought they would behave better in the slower twist barrel.

If I wanted to chop this to a 600 yd and in rifle, and forget about going beyond 600 yds, would you all still suggest the same bullets?
 
So in short, I should not expect much with this gun past 300yds? That is unfortunate, but not the end of the world as most of the shooting I will be doing will be inside 300yds.

I was choosing the lighter 150-155 bullets as I thought they would behave better in the slower twist barrel.

If I wanted to chop this to a 600 yd and in rifle, and forget about going beyond 600 yds, would you all still suggest the same bullets?

It'll certainly shoot to 600, and even a bit further. Bullets need to be trans-sonic, ideally subsonic friendly. The older 155gn SMK has a well-earned reputation in this role. With 30-inch barrels and ~2,950 fps MV they shoot to 1,000, even though barely supersonic at this distance. I suspect you'll find that things drop off a cliff at somewhere around the 800 yard mark in your set-up though.

You're really very limited by the 1:14 twist. This was commonly used many years back in British and British Commonwealth 'Target Rifle' (single-shot Palma type rifles with 30-inch barrels; prone sling shooting) thanks to the use of military 7.62 ball ammunition with 144-147gn FMJBT bullets. The military ammunition's bullets were so poor that a minimum twist / rotation rate improved performance noticeably at mid to long distances. As soon as better 155gn factory loads were adopted, 1:13 became the default twist with more than a few competitors specifying 1:12. It's not the bullet weight rather its OAL that determines the required twist and the lower drag 155s are actually rather long for their weight. The 150 and older (2155) 155gn Sierra MKs are fine in 1:14, although 13 is marginally better with the 155. 150gn PSP type bullets such as the Sierra Pro-Hunter for your deerhunting will perform well in this role and be fully stabilised.
 
175's would work too.
...to get them to 1000 yards Sub Sonic ????

I thought the objective was to get them to 1000 yards still super-sonic, not sub-sonic. I was always led to believe that the transition from super-sonic to sub-sonic destabilized the bullet.
 
It'll certainly shoot to 600, and even a bit further. Bullets need to be trans-sonic, ideally subsonic friendly. The older 155gn SMK has a well-earned reputation in this role. With 30-inch barrels and ~2,950 fps MV they shoot to 1,000, even though barely supersonic at this distance. I suspect you'll find that things drop off a cliff at somewhere around the 800 yard mark in your set-up though.

You're really very limited by the 1:14 twist. This was commonly used many years back in British and British Commonwealth 'Target Rifle' (single-shot Palma type rifles with 30-inch barrels; prone sling shooting) thanks to the use of military 7.62 ball ammunition with 144-147gn FMJBT bullets. The military ammunition's bullets were so poor that a minimum twist / rotation rate improved performance noticeably at mid to long distances. As soon as better 155gn factory loads were adopted, 1:13 became the default twist with more than a few competitors specifying 1:12. It's not the bullet weight rather its OAL that determines the required twist and the lower drag 155s are actually rather long for their weight. The 150 and older (2155) 155gn Sierra MKs are fine in 1:14, although 13 is marginally better with the 155. 150gn PSP type bullets such as the Sierra Pro-Hunter for your deerhunting will perform well in this role and be fully stabilised.


That clears things up greatly. I appreciate the response. are the older style, 2155 bullets still available?
 
You can use a crescent wrench for a hammer in a pinch too, but you bend a lot of nails. Shooting an 18" 308 to any long range, much less 1000 yards is going to be a frustrating evolution no matter how it's set up.

Get some flat based bullets (short range BR guys love them) and shoot it inside of 600 yards. They will work great to the 300 you're planning for most of your shooting. Sierra makes a bunch of 308 flat based bullets 150gr and lighter.
 
175's would work too.


I thought the objective was to get them to 1000 yards still super-sonic, not sub-sonic. I was always led to believe that the transition from super-sonic to sub-sonic destabilized the bullet.

There is what's desirable and what's possible. Fullbore / Palma rifles can keep their 155s supersonic at 1,000 in standard conditions from 30-32 inch barrels and MVs usually in the 3,000-3,050 fps bracket. The 155.5 Berger for instance is calculated to have a 1K terminal velocity of ~1,280 fps in standard conditions (59F / 29.92 inches mercury pressure). Ideally, speeds should attain or exceed 1.2 MACH or ~1,350 fps in standard conditions as trans-sonic turbulence occurs up to that point. US Army research decades ago showed that the crucial boundary is somewhere around 100 fps over the speed of sound - 1,215-1,225 fps is the key boundary and they meet that test.

F/TR and GB / British Commonwealth 'Match Rifle' with heavy loads in small primer brass and heavy, very low drag bullets such as the Berger 200.20X attain considerably higher terminal speeds at 1,000 and MR competitors shoot the 308 to 1,200 in this discipline, in excess of 1,500 yards on one Australian range.

For an 18-inch 1:14 twist barrel 308, this sort of performance is a pipe dream and the usual short-barrel / long-range policy of adopting heavier, high BC bullet loads using say the 185gn Berger Juggernaut is ruled out by the slow twist. Here in fact, only the older and shorter (hence blunter and higher drag) 155s can be used.

If you know you're going to be trans or even subsonic, the trick is to use a bullet that handles the two transitions well. The older 155 and the 175 or 190 Sierra MKs, the Berger 155.5 BT Fullbore and 185gn LRBT Juggernaut and some others fall into this category. You get larger groups and more wind drift than at faster speeds but they'll still work and even work quite well. Some designs cannot handle this, in particular the older short-range 168gn 30s such as the 168 SMK, Hornady HPBT, Nosler Custom CC. Much of this is to do with an over-steep boat-tail angle.

Then there are bullets specifically meant to cope with these circumstances. A good example is the Berger 175gn Tactical OTM which Bryan Litz designed for military type semi-auto 'Sharpshooter' or SDM type rifles with 18-20 inch barrels and standard military loads giving around 2,600 fps. Bryan shot 1-MOA 1,000 yard groups with these bullets in testing from a Larue semi-auto big AR.

There is nothing new either in 30-cal bullets achieving exceptional ranges irrespective of terminal speeds. The high spot was the 1920s when with WW1 experience behind them, national armouries developed L-R ammunition for machine-gun use. Shooting at out to 4,000+ metres was common by both sides on the Western Front in 1917-18 with the creation of massed MG battalions acting as rifle calibre lightweight artillery on the other side's rear areas and communications trenches and dropping literally heavy showers of plunging subsonic bullets on troops and supplies moving up to the front-lines during the night. The US contribution to this was the .30-06 M1 ball round using a 174gn 9-deg boat-tail FMJ bullet at a nominal 2,647 fps MV (nothing to do with the US M1 'Garand' rifle). It was introduced in 1926 and had a claimed effective range of 5,500 yards in machine-guns, most of which flight was subsonic. The famous Lapua D-series rebated boat-tail bullets which still survive in a couple of current versions were designed by the Finns between the wars for the same purpose and alongside the Swiss GP11 cartridge's bullet were arguably the best. (Ultra L-R use of MGs went out of fashion by WW2 and a common rifle and MG round was seen as preferable by most powers. The USA dropped its M1 just before WW2 and replaced it with the 152gn M2 30-06 ball as the heavy round kicked like a mule in the 1903 Springfield and its ballistics exceeded National Guard range danger areas.)

There are no 0.308" 175s that I can think of that are fully stabilised by the 308 Win in a 1:14 twist. Some are marginally so and will apparently shoot well at short ranges, but performance degrades with distance and there is also no margin to cope with ballistically sub-optimal ambient conditions such as very cold air in winter conditions.
 
So I am starting to work up a load for my new .308. That is to say that I have cleaned and prepped 100 pieces of lake city LR brass. This rifle will mainly be used for shooting groups from the prone 300 yds and closer. I plan to take it to 600-1000 yds every once in a while for local matches. I would love to have 1 load for target and to shoot the occasional eastern whitetail. Generally they weigh less than 130LBS. However, I am not opposed to having two loads for the rifle.

The rifle
Remington 700 SA .308
Blue printed action
Hart 18" barrel with a 1-14 twist. I know, very slow. Heavy with an M40 contour.
McMillan A5 Stock

I am thinking of shooting a 145-155 GN bullet given the slow twist rate. I would prefer to shoot a Spitzer boat tail. I have looked at both Nosler ballistic tip varmint or SMK.

I cant decide between Varget or IMR 4064 for powder. I can use 4064 in my other rifles if the .308 does not agree with it.

Any help would be great and much appreciated.

R/S
Adam
For deer it's the 110ttsx barnes. 3500fps from 22" barrel. For target out to 300yds use the 112 or 118 bib match bullets, they will outperform anything for sure.
 
Yes, but do you know what it was that you said that was wrong?o_O [XTR]

Sometimes. But other times, it's easier to smile weakly and admit to error hoping she won't say something like: "..... and what are you going to do about it in the future?" However, even at 72, she's still sharp as a tack, often looks at me and says: "You haven't a clue what I'm talking about, have you?"
 
Wow, great info on this thread. Thanks Laurie; I did not know that was the design reasoning of the Lapua D46, but sure explains why they do so well at marginal distances.

As for the OP, what are your 1000y goals? Agreed that you've painted a very small performance window with the 18" and 1:14 barrel, but of you want to ring a 20" steel at 1000y, it'll do that. As Laurie mentioned, Palma being limited to 155gr; a 30-32" barrel is needed for every bit of that velocity and maybe a less humid and warm day for thinner air. As I recall, the 173-175gr was developed due to the turbulent troubles of the transonic stability problems of the 168 SMK that seems to kick in <velocity and condition based of course> somewhere in the 600-800y distances.

Needless to say; 308 is not the only cartridge to benefit from longer barrels; and there's plenty of wind reading experience when behind an 18" 308.

-Mac
 
Yeah, the knowledge depth here is amazing. Has me going back to the books for sure.

Ok new goals, Max 600 yards, no thousand yard aspirations.

For hunting it will more than likely be 150-200. I know this is a chip shot for a .308, I am just super concerned with making an ethical shot.

For example, I shoot in a pro class for archery and hit the 9-10 ring at 75yds all day, but I will not shoot at an animal past 35.
 

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