Bullet length or bullet weight?

[Scott_B]

I am going back to my nube reloading experiencing and starting over using better detail to fine tune what I do to get a bit more accurate. After lurking on this and other forums, I do not have a great answer. There is a lengthy ponderous debate on case weight and the effects on case volume, but I am just studying bullets for now.

Do I weigh my bullets or measure the length to segment the bullets for 'more better' accuracy. Better is not detailed enough for this forum, so its got to be 'more better'.

Replies with humor are preferred, but not required.

Scott formerly known as Scott

 

[Ned Ludd]

The only good reason for most shooters to be weighing bullets is to cull the "once in a rare while" bullet that is really far off from all the others. They do exist, but there will probably not be very many of them in a Lot# of high quality bullets.

In contrast, measuring bullet length as a means of sorting bullets into many different little piles is something done routinely by many shooters. It is something that can typically done with a very high degree of accuracy and precision with nothing more than a quality caliper/insert. There are [at least] a couple of important considerations:

1) What bullet/segment length do you intend to sort by? BTO? OAL? Bearing Surface?

2) Will length sorting bullets provide a detectable benefit for the type of shooting intended?

The second of these considerations can be easily tested by shooting a reasonable number of groups with bullets that have been length-sorted, and those that were not length-sorted. You will either observe a difference in average group spread (or some other readout) between the two, or you will not. If there is a clear and obvious benefit, the answer is obvious.

However, as is possible with almost any sorting procedure, if you cannot readily detect a measurable difference, that does not necessarily mean that sorting has no benefit. It DOES suggest that the benefit may be very subtle or small and not easy to detect, except possibly over a long period of time. At that point, you have to decide whether the time investment is worth it, and if so, accept on faith that over the long haul, there will be some small benefit to sorting.

Here's the humor: when you have sorted a Lot# of 1000 bullets into 1000 different sorting groups of one bullet each, you are finished. There is no sorting parameter left that will allow you to subdivide individual bullets into further functional subgroups.

 

[Sixgun]

IMO...weight only matters if you're using a scale that measures .002-.005 of a grain. It's not the length that matters as much as the bearing surface.

Two guys walking down the street. One guy walks into a bar ..the other guy ducked...

 

[Lannister]

I though I'd read somewhere that 22-250's were set up to handle 50gr bullet's. As for the v-max you are shooting, if it length that matter's according to your figure's the v-max is longer than both of them. Before investing $100 in bullet's, just get one box of each to experiment with!

 

[dcali]

Bullets are made with a higher weight tolerance than nessary. One reason I say that is that the variance is a very small percentage of total weight. Another is that there is a compensation effect where pressure increases a little bit for heavier bullets, pushing them just a little bit harder and making up for some of the weight. The only good reason to sort by weight is to identify defective bullets. Those are very rare, but it happens.

Sorting by OAL may be a better use of time because BC is dependent on length. It is still a very small variance but at long range you might tighten up your groups *a little*. The only way to know is to try it and see. Lots of good f class shooters just pull them out of the box and shoot them. Not sure what the benchrest guys do but it probably makes more sense for long range benchrest than for any other discipline.

 

[spclark]

Length vs. weight, or more specifically where the bullet’s Center of Gravity is relative to where Center of Resistance on the ogive or pointy-end forward. Most easily found by sorting by Base-to-Ogive dimension (BTO seen elsewhere) which gives a functional equivalent of bullet construction geometry without getting wrapped around the axle of unnecessary testing.

OAL can mislead you; variations in
length from ogive (where lands first encounter bullet jacket) to meplat (forwardmost point) have less impact on stability once variations in BTO are accounted for by sorting.

 

[NorCalMikie]

I shoot with a guy that weighs bullets and measures brass. While he's messing with weighing and measuring brass and bullets, I've already burned off 200 rounds and am moving on to the next batch for another round or two.
All going in the same hole. Pick your poison. And whatever makes you feel good, do it. Better known as "different strokes for different strokes". Or, whatever blows your skirt up.

 

[JFrank]

I am going back to my nube reloading experiencing and starting over using better detail to fine tune what I do to get a bit more accurate. After lurking on this and other forums, I do not have a great answer. There is a lengthy ponderous debate on case weight and the effects on case volume, but I am just studying bullets for now.

Do I weigh my bullets or measure the length to segment the bullets for 'more better' accuracy. Better is not detailed enough for this forum, so its got to be 'more better'.

Replies with humor are preferred, but not required.

Scott formerly known as Scott

I have seen on (paper) improvements in group size by measuring Bullets base to ogive over weighing.
I chose to only load .001 variants per loading session.

 

[dkhunt14]

The only good reason for most shooters to be weighing bullets is to cull the "once in a rare while" bullet that is really far off from all the others. They do exist, but there will probably not be very many of them in a Lot# of high quality bullets.

In contrast, measuring bullet length as a means of sorting bullets into many different little piles is something done routinely by many shooters. It is something that can typically done with a very high degree of accuracy and precision with nothing more than a quality caliper/insert. There are [at least] a couple of important considerations:

1) What bullet/segment length do you intend to sort by? BTO? OAL? Bearing Surface?

2) Will length sorting bullets provide a detectable benefit for the type of shooting intended?

The second of these considerations can be easily tested by shooting a reasonable number of groups with bullets that have been length-sorted, and those that were not length-sorted. You will either observe a difference in average group spread (or some other readout) between the two, or you will not. If there is a clear and obvious benefit, the answer is obvious.

However, as is possible with almost any sorting procedure, if you cannot readily detect a measurable difference, that does not necessarily mean that sorting has no benefit. It DOES suggest that the benefit may be very subtle or small and not easy to detect, except possibly over a long period of time. At that point, you have to decide whether the time investment is worth it, and if so, accept on faith that over the long haul, there will be some small benefit to sorting.

Here's the humor: when you have sorted a Lot# of 1000 bullets into 1000 different sorting groups of one bullet each, you are finished. There is no sorting parameter left that will allow you to subdivide individual bullets into further functional subgroups.

This is a very good post. Good answers. The only thing that might matter more is the distance you are shooting. I know 1000 yards means more to some things then shooting at 2 or 3 hundred. Matt

 

[r bose]

I shoot with a guy that weighs bullets and measures brass. While he's messing with weighing and measuring brass and bullets, I've already burned off 200 rounds and am moving on to the next batch for another round or two.
All going in the same hole. Pick your poison. And whatever makes you feel good, do it. Better know as "different strokes for different strokes". Or, whatever blows your skirt up.

Adding to the above, it all depends on the level of accuracy you're wanting and IF you own a rifle that will accomplish it. Sorting bullets to shoot out of a $350 rifle is a total waste of time (sorting and weighing anything for that matter) except your powder charge. Or, shooting no further than 100 or 200 yards. Bench Rest precision requires a properly built bench rest/F-class rifle, then all other details come into play.

Want humor? Time and time again I see at my local public range shooters who just CAN"T BELIEVE their AK47 wont shoot a hole in a hole group at 100 yards or the guy with a thin barreled hunting gun who reloads, measures everything, and can't understand why his rifle doesn't shoot .2 groups consistently

 

[MattPeetz]

I always laugh when i see “ a bunch of top f classers just shoot them straight out of the box”. Lol. That is BS. A small small small minority may do that but the vast majority do some type of sorting.
F Classers are the biggest BS’ers out there i’ve seen haha. I am an f classer but i don’t hide nothing. Stiff competition only makes me better.

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

Kangaroo meat taste good, but it's hard to keep down.

 

[fyrewall]

I buy lots of factory "blem" or second bullets because they are real cheap - but I sort them. I made a gauge (aluminum, cheap, nice 2 diameter round hole - stand them up straight, drill press), so when I drop a bullet point first into it I can measure any ogive variation using a caliper at about .002. Some of my rifles have more than 1200 rounds through them and exhibit uneven land wear, almost always at 6:00 o'clock.

Next, if they are hollow point bullets, I sort for opening size. 3 trays, 2 wire gauges stuck into openings, thickest to "bad tray", thinnest to "OK" tray, no fit/go "good" tray. I just got a bunch of 123 grain Nosler 6.5 "blems" and the hollow point sizes really varied, could this be why they were "blems" ? Great gulping meplats? I have seen plastic point "blems" having plastic points that wobbled upon rolling them (run out but of low density).

For my type of shooting if I miss there is usually another target.

 

[varget204]

I weigh and sort by Ogive length,Not oal length,I seat them by BTO,try to get them with in .001-.0015,it depends on what kind of accuracy your looking for.If your shooting 600 to 1000 yards or farther it makes a difference

 

[Medic505]

F Classers are the biggest BS’ers out there i’ve seen

You're kidding, right?

Two F Classers were standing on an iceberg, one slipped off and the other hollered for faster pit service.

 

[Scott_B]

All excellent, thanks, this reinforced my idea that measuring by length to ogive is best by a hair or two and I now know that sorting by weight is not a great idea.


I do take exception to the gentleman with that rather funny joke only without any sorting comments. You forgot to add to the sorting discussion and maybe you can add another joke to two ;=D