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Desired CBTO problems

Team, I am having a problem with achieving the desired Cartridge Base to Ogive (CBTO).

I have some experience loading for .308, different rifles, cases , projectiles and powders etc but I've never experienced anything like this before and it has me stumped.

I purchased a .223 Ruger Precision Rifle for my partner and I have been trying to reload for it. This is my first time reloading for .223. The RPR has a 1/7 twist so I chose to try the .224 80gn SMK.

Using a Hornady OAL gauge I measured the chamber using the modified case and and 2 80gn SMK's. I did this 20 times using the two different SMK's to get a surprisingly short average of 1.773".

The cases that I have been using are 1.760"

The difficulty I am having is that due to the profile of the SMK's I am having to trim my cases right back or else the calipers with comparator insert (Sinclair's), touch the case before they make contact with the ogive on the SMK.
I know the maths don't necessarily appear to support this but the real world application in the reloading room is. To consistently make sure that I was not touching the case, in previous batches I was having to load long (into the lands at 1.810", group under 1 MOA).

Today I have trimmed a test batch of cases back to 1.680" which has allowed me to load my first batch under 1.773". These will be the first I've managed to load which wont be touching the lands but the necks have been trimmed so far back I am second guessing myself.

Does this sound familiar to anyone, any thoughts? I can't help but feel that I am doing something wrong but I can not see what it is.
 
Sounds like the bullet is seated too deep if the comparator insert is contacting the edge of the case before the ogive of the bullet. A photo or two would help in trying to determine what is going on. For the record I have not had much luck using the Hornady OAL gauge consistently especially in the RPR.
 
Seems like you're doing something wrong. I don't own a Ruger anything, but there's no way the CBTO will measure the same as the case length. My two 8 twist rifles measure 1.955, and 1.960 CBTO at touch with the 80gr MK. Do you have any factory 223 ammo to measure/ try in the gun. If your measurements are right even factory ammo would not chamber.
 
Using a Hornady OAL gauge I measured the chamber using the modified case and and 2 80gn SMK's. I did this 20 times using the two different SMK's to get a surprisingly short average of 1.773".
The cases that I have been using are 1.760"

So you're saying that your dummy round is measuring 1.773" CBTO and your bare cases measure 1.760"?
Something is amiss.
 
First let's get your case measurement from closed bolt to shoulder or datum , what is your case headspace ? If your loading for benchrest shooting it should be .001 or .002 no more or less . Case trim length between minimum and maximum trim length .

Then seat your bullet long and by testing in your chamber , seat the bullet alittle lower each time until your bolt closes without resistance . Check that measurement , apply magic marker to the seated bullet to see if your touching the rifling ( CBTO ) Hornady OAL gauge will get you in the ball park but they have to much wiggle room when your dealing in thousands. Hope I Helped .

Chris
 
I second having trouble getting consistent measurements with the OAL gauge in an RPR, albeit the magnum version. Results varied by 65-70 thousanths.

Also, if you think about which datum points you are measuring with that gauge. You are measuring chamber headspace to lands. Unless you know for certain your modified case headspace is the same as your chamber, modified case head to ogive might be a bit different than fully expanded base to ogive.
 
The Hornady tool is pure junk. You cant stop sliding the dinky plastic rod on first resistance. What happens is the bullet starts heading in there slightly nose down due to the loose fit between bullet and neck on the modified case. So you start to feel freebore area rubbing on the bullet and your still miles away from the actual measurement you're going for. Try using a lot more pressure on the rod and hold the main piece of the tool with your other hand so it doesn't start to back out. Then tighten the little set screw down really firmly cuz that plastic will slide right over the screw if its not super firm.

I know what your thinking...your just cramming the bullet way into the lands and now this measurement represents a major jam....well it does but by no more then 6 thou. I tested the hell out of that tool on a chamber with a known measurement and that was the most accurate method. Just press hard and minus 4-5 thou. Also dont forget its measuring from the shoulder of the modify case to your lands. Not your bolt face to your lands. So you have to fiddle with the math there a little bit too. Measure a Fired case bass to datum and then measure the modified case that came from hornday to figure out that difference.

Best method like they said above is load a dummy round long, take everything out of your bolt ( firing pin, ejector, extractor, everything) then try chambering the round 1 thou at a time. Keep sizing down 1 thou then try and chamber until the bolt handle just falls closed. Use a dummy round with very low run out. You will get a false reading on that test as well if you use a round with a bunch of run out for the same reasons as before.
 
Also make sure your rifle is super clean. Carbon copper and whatnot all fouled up in there will definitely change the measurement
 
The Hornady kit works fine for me for what it's for. A reference point. I measure 3-5 times and take an average of the top three. Usually the spread is only 2-3 thou. Once I transfer this measurement to where I want to seat an actual rd the original measurements only use is to keep a eye on your throat moving and only if you've saved and are using the exact same bullet you used to measure it the first time.
 
What insert are you using the comparator? According to Hornady, the .224 is a number 22 or 222.
Your case length is correct at 1.76". It doesn't matter what length the modified case is, the measurement is from the base of the case to the Ogive on the bullet where the comparator contacts the Ogive.
I would also check your OAL (Base to Meglat) to insure that you are within the measurement to be able to load the magazine. The length to reach the lands may not be obtainable.
Best to step back and regroup.
 
What insert are you using the comparator? According to Hornady, the .224 is a number 22 or 222.
Your case length is correct at 1.76". It doesn't matter what length the modified case is, the measurement is from the base of the case to the Ogive on the bullet where the comparator contacts the Ogive.
I would also check your OAL (Base to Meglat) to insure that you are within the measurement to be able to load the magazine. The length to reach the lands may not be obtainable.
Best to step back and regroup.

Yup, if any factory 223 round fits.... his measurements are wack. He's probably at 1.973 instead of 1.773
 
Given what you have described, there are a few possibilities. The first is that you may not actually be pushing the bullet all the way to "touching the lands with your Hornady OAL gauge. I have a couple .223s chambered with a long freebore (0.169") specifically designed to seat Berger's 90 VLD, which is a very long bullet for .223 Rem. The freebore diameter of the match reamer used to cut their chambers is very tight, only .0002" over bullet diameter. The first time I tried to determine distance to touching in the first of these rifles with the Hornady OAL gauge, I pushed the bullet in until I felt the "touch", then tightened the set screw and pulled it out for measurement. To my surprise, the bullet was seated pretty far down in the case and the measured COAL was much shorter than I thought it should be. Turns out, it was almost exactly 0.169" shorter than it should have been because the "touch" I felt was the bullet contacting the leading edge of the very tight freebore, NOT the lands. Once I figured that out, I re-measured with the Hornady OAL gauge, making sure to give a harder push with the plastic rod. Sure enough, with a little more pressure, I could feel the bullet "slide" in farther from the initial light "touch" until a true hard "touch" at the lands was reached. The tight freebore gave the false impression that the bullet had reached the lands. Although I think a steel (rather than plastic) pushrod would be an improvement, I don't view this as a design flaw with the Hornady OAL gauge, per se. Once I figured the issue out, it works just fine in my hands, although having to use extra pressure on the pushrod makes it a little more challenging to feel the second hard "touch" of the lands without jamming the bullet into the lands by 10 or 20 thousandths. It's just something you have to practice and get a feel for.

Second, I have no idea how the RPR .223 Rem chamber has been cut (i.e. how much freebore it has) as I don't own one. However, I do know it is set up to feed rounds from a magazine. For that reason, the standard COAL for loaded rounds is 2.260", unless you have modified the magazine in some way to accept longer rounds. Commonly-used .223 magazines such as a Magpul will not properly feed rounds that are much longer than 2.260" without modification. I played around with seating the 80 SMKs in one of my ARs with Magpul mags and immediately found that the 80 SMK is too long for mag-length rounds, even though it is one of the shortest ~80 gr .224" bullets available. When loaded to mag length, the bullet is seated way down in the case neck, with a significant portion of the bullet shank below the neck/shoulder junction. Although it is possible to load rounds this way, there are issues such as excess pressure and possibly having to using a faster powder to get even halfway decent velocity with the compromised [effective] case volume and relatively short barrels typically found in ARs. If you pull a factory (mag length) .223 Rem round with a 77 gr SMK bullet, which is substantially shorter than an 80 SMK, you will find that the bullet is still sunk pretty far down in the case neck. In my hands, the 77 SMK is about as long a bullet as I would choose to load to mag length. The 80 and 90 gr .224 bullets are great for bolt rifles in F-TR, where single-feeding is required, but they are simply much too long for loading to mag length without modification of the mag to accept and properly feed longer rounds. If the RPR chamber is set up specifically for mag length rounds with minimal to moderate freebore, it is entirely possible that you correctly measured the distance to touching the lands with the Hornady OAL gauge. If so, your loaded rounds are short enough that the point on the 80 SMK ogive where your caliper insert needs to seat is actually at, or below, the case neck mouth as described in the next paragraph. Your CBTO measurements suggest that you are very close to having this happen. If so, choosing a different (shorter) bullet such as the 77 SMK is your best bet. If the RPR chamber/freebore is actually cut fairly short, there is no way around being forced to seat the 80 SMKs very deep in the case without having the freebore extended, or doing it yourself with something like the PTG Uni-Throater tool. If you do that, it will be modified permanently, which may affect loading and performance with shorter bullets or commercial ammunition.

As mentioned, another possibility is that you may be seating the bullet ogive very close to (or below) the case neck mouth. In other words, you are measuring the case OAL with your caliper insert tool, rather than the CBTO, because the spot on the bullet ogive where your caliper insert should seat is actually positioned below the case mouth. Years ago, I ran into the exact same issue with Berger 80.5s, which are actually quite a bit longer in BTO measurement than the 80 SMKs. The reasons for this problem were two-fold. First, the rifle for which I was trying to work up the load had zero...repeat ZERO...freebore. As a result, I knew beforehand that the bullet shank would be sunk pretty far down below the neck when the bullets were seated at approximately .015" off the lands, even though I was NOT restricted to loading rounds to mag length. Second, I was using the Sinclair caliper insert for .22 cal bullets, which has a hole diameter just barely under the bullet bearing surface diameter (caliber). For that reason, the Sinclair caliper insert seats very close to the ogive/bearing surface junction. To solve the problem, I simply switched out my caliper inserts from the Sinclair (steel) to the Hornady (aluminum) inserts, which have a noticeably smaller hole and seat much farther out on the bullet ogive (i.e. away from the case mouth).

I suspect that you are experiencing one (or more) of these issues. It might be helpful if you can provide your COAL measurements with loaded rounds, rather than the CBTO values. Also, if you are convinced that you are pushing the 80 SMKs all the way to "touching" the lands with your Hornady OAL gauge, after tightening the set screw, hold up a naked 80 SMK next to the one in the gauge so you can see for yourself how far down in the case the boattail/bearing surface junction is situated in relation to the neck shoulder. If it's situated well below as I suspect, AND you're certain it was "touching" the lands, the easiest solution is simply to use a shorter (lighter weight) bullet.
 
Team,
Thank you all for all your replies and those who took a lot of effort in their replies. I will be back out in the reloading shed again this weekend with a couple of ideas. I think the first action will be to re measure the chamber making sure that I play around with the feel as I push the projectiles forward and make that I am not getting false readings. When I did my first batch of 20 measurement I had a shortest of 1.750 which at the time I put a ? next to, and the longest as 1.815 which I wrote "rammed into lands?" In total there were 3 measurements in the 1.81* so I am now thinking that there lays the answer.

Dave
 
Maybe it is me, but I still have a hard time understanding how you could have a measurement that is less than the length of a case alone.
Are you sure that you reset your gauge to allow for the 1" that the comparator takes up? Not to be insulting here, but I have done it before.
 
Papa Charlie - the points on the bullet ogive where the rifling and caliper inserts contact may not be exactly the same. Most .223 barrels will be 0.218" or 0.219" bore diameter, which is smaller than even the Hornady comparator insert hole diameter. With a very short (or non-existent) freebore, the bullet ogive/bearing surface junction can indeed be at or below the case neck mouth with the bullet seated at "touching". In my case with the 80.5s, I was ok measuring the distance to touching with the Hornady OAL gauge, although it was very close. However, once I seated the bullets ~.020" off the lands, I was just measuring case length with the comparator + Sinclair comparator insert, because the comparator insert contact point on the bullet had moved to where it was at, or below, the case neck mouth. I agree it doesn't seem straightforward, but it can happen. It took measurements of several seated rounds combined with significant adjustment of the seater die micrometer before what was actually happening dawned on me. It was one of those "DOH! moments. ;)
 
Thanks for explaining that. I have never had to measure a .223 so have never experience this before.
As for the DOH! moments, had too many of those to mention. :rolleyes:
 
You may want to try this method of finding the lands. It may work on the RPR or maybe not.

You have take the firing pin and ejector plunger out of the bolt for this method to work, but it worked nicely when I did it.

 
how does book col measurement compared to what you are getting with the Hornady tool? it may help find where the problem is.
 

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