Palma Team/Match History

[Aero]

I've learned from Palma rifle team captains and coaches that team matches are won with shooters who can call all shots well into the X ring, have good rifles then do what the coaches tells them. It's easy to get good hard holding shooters, equipment and ammo. Coaches who manage the shooters well and dope the wind better are hard to get. They deserve 60% to 70% of the credit when winning or placing wherever on the scoreboard. It's a team match, not 16 people doing their own thing.

Which has got to be hard since as Americans and especially American Shooters, we consider ourselves individuals.

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

When I competed in Canada there was always the "threat" of that. USA is the only country that has unlimited bullet weight for Palma.

As I stated, the threat was real and they picked ammo during the "tryout" at Butner, Oct 01. You did not want to get caught with other than SIE #2155's loaded in your cases.

Nor sure why some of the newbie Palma God's are soooo worried about unlimited bullets. Last I knew, a fellow won the Palma at Perry using 200gr Sierra's circa 1992-1994 and that was pretty much the LAST time other than 155's won. Shoot what you want and don't worry about the other guy that's going to lose.

 

[Bart B.]

In team matches, it is paramount that all rifle's metallic sights have the same radius and movement per click. The American standard for decades was a 30" radius for 24" barrels and 40 tpi lead screws so one knob turn moved the LOS exactly 3 inches/MOA per hundred yards. 12 clicks per turn, exactly 1/4 MOA per click.

With 30" barrels the norm to get 3000 fps with 155 grain bullets, such rear sights gave 1/5 MOA per click. Pair firing is normal in Palma team matches and members must all have the same LOS change per click. Otherwise, both rifles wont have the same LOS change when the coach says "35 clicks left" for the first shot at 1000 yards.

One sight company made rear sights with 36 tpi lead screws that confuses this issue. Some Team members having one didn't realize this and problems arose.

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

I've learned from Palma rifle team captains and coaches that team matches are won with shooters who can call all shots well into the X ring, have good rifles then do what the coaches tells them. It's easy to get good hard holding shooters, equipment and ammo. Coaches who manage the shooters well and dope the wind better are hard to get. They deserve 60% to 70% of the credit when winning or placing wherever on the scoreboard. It's a team match, not 16 people doing their own thing.

If you have all of the answers, you should be the captain because nobody else has had the answer for a lot of cycles. Some of those captains that never brought home the standard have a wee bit more experience than anyone posting on this forum. That's reality.

At any rate, the head coach wins team matches. It's finding that rare individual that can game-plan the best strategy to execute under given conditions and keep their 4 knob-turners on the same page. Finding shooters that can/will comply is the least of the problems.

What is far more important is how to keep the game from sliding into the abyss because the downward trajectory of participation has a full head of steam. We had more people willing to travel to shoot the Camp Butner tryout in 2001 than they had to fire the Individual Palma Match at the 2018 National Matches. That's pretty telling.

 

[Bart B.]

If you have all of the answers, you should be the captain because nobody else has had the answer for a lot of cycles. Some of those captains that never brought home the standard have a wee bit more experience than anyone posting on this forum. That's reality.

At any rate, the head coach wins team matches. It's finding that rare individual that can game-plan the best strategy to execute under given conditions and keep their 4 knob-turners on the same page. Finding shooters that can/will comply is the least of the problems.

What is far more important is how to keep the game from sliding into the abyss because the downward trajectory of participation has a full head of steam. We had more people willing to travel to shoot the Camp Butner tryout in 2001 than they had to fire the Individual Palma Match at the 2018 National Matches. That's pretty telling.

Very good post. Should be required reading for anyone trying out for any shooting team. And memorized by people criticizing a team's poor results when they're ignorant of the requirements for winning

 

[Aero]

If you have all of the answers, you should be the captain because nobody else has had the answer for a lot of cycles. Some of those captains that never brought home the standard have a wee bit more experience than anyone posting on this forum. That's reality.

At any rate, the head coach wins team matches. It's finding that rare individual that can game-plan the best strategy to execute under given conditions and keep their 4 knob-turners on the same page. Finding shooters that can/will comply is the least of the problems.

What is far more important is how to keep the game from sliding into the abyss because the downward trajectory of participation has a full head of steam. We had more people willing to travel to shoot the Camp Butner tryout in 2001 than they had to fire the Individual Palma Match at the 2018 National Matches. That's pretty telling.

Shooting with a sling and coat is a tough sell today. Most just don't want to take the time needed to learn it and become good at it. I've seen several times at our matches here at CRC where club members come have a look at a match and the next thing you know they are laying on the ground behind an F-class rifle hitting a target farther away than they ever imagined. Kinda hard to do with a Palma rifle. The only thing harder to get people interested in is probably a game where you have to stand on your hind legs and shoot, like Silhouette or even Schuetzen.

 

[Bart B.]

I've seen several times at our matches here at CRC where club members come have a look at a match ....

In January, 1985 at 5 degrees below one Saturday, a friend and I layed out the CRC highpower range. I used an HP distance meter while he moved the stadia rod with a 3 corner reflector all over the range. Got all firing lines, target carriers and number signs staked out to about 1/4 inch distance tolerance.

 

[corning]

Well then, hello again. Don't remember you right now.

I would not have expected you too. It was a lot of years ago.

 

[corning]

Nor sure why some of the newbie Palma God's are soooo worried about unlimited bullets.

Grant, it's called a level playing field, and I am sure you know the rest of the arguments for (and against) as well as I do.

I've been involved in Palma/long range for well in excess of 30 years. I had a Palma rifle built somewhere in the '90's. I started using the 155's at that time and haven't looked back.

 

[Bart B.]

Grant, it's called a level playing field,

Factually, the "155's only" started in late 1992, after 155's were first used in that years international Palma matches. That, plus those from other countries shooting that same lot of ammo a year earlier in the 1991 Rocky Mountain Palma Matches. Most accurate ammo ever shot in international events.

As most members of the International Palma Committee were in the British Commonwealth, they kept the bullet rule close to 7.62 NATO M80 bullet weight. That was the only ammo allowed in the Commonwealth. No handloads allowed. They did allow any rifle with some restrictions.

The 1997 South African Goodwill Matches in Bloemfontein was shot with 155 Sierras in their arsenal 7.62 NATO ammo. They had to buy those bullets from a Canadian distributor as 'twas illegal to ship them from the USA. Same match in 1998 allowed the use of any 155 to be handloaded in any primed case, but only the arsenal powder be used. The USA team used Berger and_Sierra 155's.

Leveling the playing field has been a Commonwealth philosophy for over a century. First big step forward was in early 1970 when commercial 4 lug Swing and Barnard actions were allowed. The 2 lug Musgrave action came about in that time frame. They shot M80 ball ammo much better than SMLE's did 303 ammo.

 

[Aero]

In January, 1985 at 5 degrees below one Saturday, a friend and I layed out the CRC highpower range. I used an HP distance meter while he moved the stadia rod with a 3 corner reflector all over the range. Got all firing lines, target carriers and number signs staked out to about 1/4 inch distance tolerance.

Well, thanks for that. I sure appreciate that somebody thought it was a good idea to build a 1000 yard range near Byers, and there are plenty of others that feel the same.

I have a very biased opinion, but I think the CRC range is as nice a range to shoot on as any in the country. You did a great job laying it out and the pits are as good as it gets.

I was told last weekend that at one time some Palma tryouts were held there?

I believe last year at our State LR Championship, a guy was wandering around with a little dog I think, talking to people. Somebody said to me that he was the guy that designed or built the range. I wanted to introduce myself and shake his hand, but never got the chance. Would that have been you?

 

[Bart B.]

I believe last year at our State LR Championship, a guy was wandering around with a little dog I think, talking to people. Somebody said to me that he was the guy that designed or built the range. I wanted to introduce myself and shake his hand, but never got the chance. Would that have been you?

No, wasn't me.

I won the 1992 Colorado state LR championship. 3 times across the Palma course starting with a new unified rifle and left over ammo from the previous year.

 

[Jetjock1]

Brady-

I've seen that info. I'm surprised the Palma website doesn't have some better history.

Jetjock, that's some good info. It's just too bad that some really comprehensive details apparently haven't been recorded and put together. I've always figured that the Palma matches were a pretty big deal. But then again, competitive shooting just doesn't get the accolades that it deserves, especially the paper target games where the shots have to be kept in the middle.

Brady
There is a complete history of the Palma match written by Colin Cheshire from the UK which has places, dates teams by individual name, rifles targets etc. all you would ever like to know about Palma.
Jetjock

 

[Aero]

Brady
There is a complete history of the Palma match written by Colin Cheshire from the UK which has places, dates teams by individual name, rifles targets etc. all you would ever like to know about Palma.
Jetjock

Could you provide a link?

 

[41magnut]

Brady
There is a complete history of the Palma match written by Colin Cheshire from the UK which has places, dates teams by individual name, rifles targets etc. all you would ever like to know about Palma.
Jetjock

I would be Interested in a link as well.
A Amazon. search found nothing.

 

[Martin52]

One copy here;

Item no longer available

The item you are looking for is no longer available.

www.abebooks.com

 

[243Mendoza]

...

What is far more important is how to keep the game from sliding into the abyss because the downward trajectory of participation has a full head of steam. We had more people willing to travel to shoot the Camp Butner tryout in 2001 than they had to fire the Individual Palma Match at the 2018 National Matches. That's pretty telling.

I think one reason that Palma has lost appeal/popularity is that the US Palma team info has gone 'dark'. At one time, you could read posts regularly from Palma team members on http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/index.php but they have moved online discussion content elsewhere unknown.

 

[Tpb10505]

I think one reason that Palma has lost appeal/popularity is that the US Palma team info has gone 'dark'. At one time, you could read posts regularly from Palma team members on http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/index.php but they have moved online discussion content elsewhere unknown.

The current leadership is working on changing that (which is not me other than being the Instagram person). They’re actively working to promote USNRT and the Palma Team to the public and industry, and have a structure in place to keep shooters together for more than just a cycle with the USNRT Membership along with the Red and Blue Teams. They have an updated website which is here USNRT and we’ve started the US National Rifle Team Instagram. There is a private Facebook group for USNRT Members, but there should also be a public page as well in the near future.

And folks do still post on the LR Forum but you are correct, it’s not that busy.

 

[243Mendoza]

The current leadership is working on changing that (which is not me other than being the Instagram person). They’re actively working to promote USNRT and the Palma Team to the public and industry, and have a structure in place to keep USNRT Members together for more than just a cycle with the USNRT Membership along with the Red and Blue Teams. They have an updated website which is www.usnrt.com and we’ve started the US National Rifle Team Instagram. There is a private Facebook group for USNRT Members, but there should also be a public page as well in the near future.

And folks do still post on the LR Forum but you are correct, it’s not that busy.

The usnrt.com seems to be defunct:

 

[Tpb10505]

The usnrt.com seems to be defunct:

View attachment 1348259

No www, just USNRT.com, I’ve updated the link.