• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Service Rifle Scopes that I haven't heard discussed.

It’s true that parallax adds an error. But it’s a tiny error relative to the others, and when you account for that, either with math or just range time, you find that it’s not worth considering, which is why nightforce (for example) didn’t include the feature.

Focusing on the things that matter are the keys to success in any discipline, and service rifle is no different. Parallax isn’t one of them.

Do you think it costs no points ever?
How many points is "not worth considering"?
1 a match?
1 a year?
What does buying a scope with correction take away from focus on things that are more important?

The whole cap thing is different. That is saying parallax error IS worth addressing but it can be addressed much more cheaply than getting a new scope with correction.

I really don't mean to be a dick but I am amazed that you so casually say it's not worth considering especially since considering it is not that big a deal either.
 
Do you think it costs no points ever?
.

Not trying to be a d!ck either but, one last time. again.. :)
I guess you didn't read, comprehend or agree with my point a page or so ago that any small error there is will not only always push your shot away from the scoring ring.

Some of them will just as mathematically / hypothetically ( whatever tiny error it does cause ) gain you a point as often as it costs you a point.

If you actually shoot a true service rifle ( not a games rifle ) and think about all that while you are in a coat and sling at 600 reading the wind and mirage and dialing in corrections or holding off, you will be shooting more 8's and 7's that is you just held hard and broke good shots.

Buy whatever scope makes you happy...
Cheers :)

My apologies to libertyman
 
Last edited:
Do you think it costs no points ever?
How many points is "not worth considering"?
1 a match?
1 a year?
What does buying a scope with correction take away from focus on things that are more important?

The whole cap thing is different. That is saying parallax error IS worth addressing but it can be addressed much more cheaply than getting a new scope with correction.

I really don't mean to be a dick but I am amazed that you so casually say it's not worth considering especially since considering it is not that big a deal either.
The magnitude of the error matters. The parallax error is really small for realistic misalignments. When you add it realistically on top of the other sources of error, the difference between shooting with and without parallax error is so small that it can be neglected. It’s really, really small.

Edit: as GSS implied above, you can’t just add the errors together. You have to account for now they offset each other. The actual increase in group size (for example) due to parallax is much smaller than the size of the parallax error, which is already very, very small.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: GSS
Some of them will just as mathematically / hypothetically ( whatever tiny error it does cause ) gain you a point as often as it costs you a point.

If you actually shoot a true service rifle ( not a games rifle ) and think about all that while you are in a coat and sling at 600 reading the wind and mirage and dialing in corrections or holding off, you will be shooting more 8's and 7's that is you just held hard and broke good shots.

It is true that sometimes the error will be to the good side. That sounds good at first but it's like saying if I have bad hold then a bad trigger pull won't matter because half the time the errors will cancel. The more sources of error the bigger the net group the lower the score.

I don't see how anything said here would involve thinking differently while shooting. What do you have in mind? We're talking about a buying decision. A tiny part of setup for each stage would be dialing the AO or SF to the correct position once. You can't even forget 'cause the target will be blurry the first time you look.
 
........ Shooting experience is close to 100% irrelevant.

...

Just a classic F-class shooter response in a conversation about service rifles...

Yeah, you are missing the forest through the trees but since you won't listen to the reasonable voices I know my time is wasted here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GSS
I say buy what you want.if you think you have a problem with parallax then by all means,buy a March or whatever. If you want to shoot a $300 scope because you think parallax doesn't matter then buy one of those. Its been proven time and time again that they all work just fine. Dillema solved
 
I say buy what you want.if you think you have a problem with parallax then by all means,buy a March or whatever. If you want to shoot a $300 scope because you think parallax doesn't matter then buy one of those. Its been proven time and time again that they all work just fine. Dillema solved

I agree 99% with this and was trying to add a small theoretical disputation.
Clearly I failed because the objections to my posts were a lot 'bigger' than the point I was trying to make.
 
Yeah, I saw that trick and it would seem to eliminate any misalignment problems.
I'm putting my money back right now for the Ranger or a PST if I can find one used.

Libertyman,
The sale on the Ranger Scopes at Midway typically comes back around so they won't be the $499 shipped they are listed on the webpage at today forever. They were $309 delivered just a few weeks ago. I don't know if they will go back to that cheap again.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...inated-tmcq-reticle-matte-with-target-turrets


The PST's are available used.
I just put together a sale on a used one for a junior that I will be coaching this summer from a member of the USNM forum. The person he is buying it from had two of them. If you are ready to buy now you could probably get this used but stated like new one for 275 - 300 shipped. If you want me to put you in touch with the seller just IM me your email address and I'll put you in touch with the seller.

I'll be posting some additional info here soon on the Athlon scope that was just posted on USNM recently from a shooter that was working with Athlon developing the new service rifle scope they will be offering for sale soon.

George
 

Here is some info that was recently posted on USNM on this scope option:
For those of you that are members there her is the thread link http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/...pe-option/&page=2&tab=comments#comment-434920

There are some good pictures of the newest model that the tester took themselves as well. It looks pretty nice from the pic's regarding nice / well marked turrets.

--------------------------- Quote ----------------------
Hey everybody,

Some of you might remember me as having been around a few years ago but I disappeared. A combination of work taking over my life, and then I decided to take some quality me-time to recover from an auto accident.

I actually approached Athlon about creating this scope back when SR scopes were just coming to market prior to the rules being official. The owner of Athlon had made a name for himself in the PRS market for being open to new ideas and was bringing scopes to market with, among other things, adjustable parallax that is adj waaaay up close. So I contacted him and he was open to the idea. Bear in mind this was in the early stages of scope development for SR and a) there was no experience in the market as there is now and b) there was a different thinking about the size of the surrounding circle on a reticle. That explains the 12 MOA ID circle.... it comes from 2015 thinking.

Development first centered around a prism scope and I got hold of the prototype of this scope.
https://athlonoptics.com/product/rifle-scopes-btr-pr41-prismscope/
In short... tracking didn't cut it. to their credit Athlon took the data and went back to the drawing board with that scope. Myself, I moved on to others, eventually settling on Weaver/ISTs, of which I have a matched pair.

Time marches on, and several months back, just as I was physically able to get back to the sport, I get an email from Athlon telling me they have a 1-4.5 optic planned, and are looking at the reticle again. They can only go so far on redesign given a need to keep the thing marketable elsewhere, but they want input before its finalized. I roped in a couple of other community members after Athlon OK'd it, and we spitballed. Basically the only thing anyone will see is whats in the middle of that circle so thats all we looked at changing. After some dialogue and a couple of iterations, we were given three choices and you see the one that got picked. In a perfect world I would have reduced that circle, but that wasn't an option at the time.

More time passed, and I got another email saying the single production prototype was in Athlon's hands, and they wanted to send it to me for test/eval. I have had it on my rifle since October although my health and schedule have limited my ability to shoot to only a half dozen outings. 2 weekends ago I shot a short match in abominable weather (rain, swirling wind) and scored a personal best. And I forgot my spotting scope that day. Very short assessment is I like it and I plan to give up my Weavers permanently for one of these.

Some personal observations

  • Nice clear glass. All of my shooting with it has been in weather ranging from bad to ridiculous and I have been very pleased with the view on target.
  • Adjustable parallax down to 22 feet (note pics below the prototype goes to 10). Its graduated for use on a SR course. so far as I can tell the parallax works fine, and the 22 ft minimum means its good for hallway practice.
  • Big Freaking Turrets. Like em a lot. Firm clicks. Not $2,000 scope clicks but firm and clicky without slop. I really like the fact that elevation has only one 25 MOA revolution, so no getting lost. Production scopes are advertised as 23 MOA on a single turn but prototype is 25 as you can see below. Windage dial is just as big and clearly marked with big 1R-2R etc. markings.
  • 1/4 MOA increments. I didn't realize how much I missed this until I got it back.
  • It has reticle illumination which is of course useless. However I tried the old trick of using two CR2016's instead of a CR2032 to double the voltage and it works just fine. On a cloudy day (thats all I have had so far) its visibly red. When I did that with another Athlon scope a few years back and asked Athlon about warranty, they thought it was a neat trick and had no problem with it.
  • Its *heavy*. Not so great for any other sport but good for us. The overall impression is of a solid tank and not a delicate instrument.
  • So far as I can tell, and we all know this can change over time, tracking is accurate.
  • Its a second focal plane reticle but I don't care. I never use anything but 4.5x.
I don't have much in the way of pics as I did not plan to do a writeup when I stopped by this evening. I dug a few up from when I got the scope. One is it sitting side by side with my IST/Weaver on the rifle. Remember this is a prototype so possibly a production unit will look different

On Friday I got another email from Athlon's owner telling me they had production stock on hand.
---
Maybe I should give the longer version. The kind of graduations / increments on the scope were coarse metric and completely unsuitable for SR. The elevation turret's direction was also reversed from what we expect in a USA scope. European scopes often have an elevation turret that goes in the opposite direction. Its normal for them. Not so much for us.

Again remember this was 2015. SR optics considered as possible choices were ACOGs because ... they were service optics. So a parallax-free prism scope sounded like a good idea at the time.

EDIT: I found my post on it. At the time I made this I hadn't yet figured out the directional difference. Which reminds me the turrets were also unmarked and fingertip-sized. What you'd expect for a prism or red dot but a bad choice for SR. Looking at Athlon's imagery this morning for that scope, it now has much bigger turrets, they are marked and 0.5 moa instead of metric ... elevation is still clockwise but at least its marked clearly. So they did work it over based on my feedback, which was pretty candid.
------ End Quote -------------------

My take,
This scope is new and unproven but given the suppliers example of good customer service in the text above if I were in the market now and adjustable parallax was important to me ( hopefully that horse is dead at least in this thread... :) )
I would give one of these a try.

It may or not turn out to be good quality with repeatable clicks. Time will tell...
It will take the better part of at least a season of people using them before we will know how good they are.

George
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: PDS
Here is some info that was recently posted on USNM on this scope option:
For those of you that are members there her is the thread link http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/...pe-option/&page=2&tab=comments#comment-434920

There are some good pictures of the newest model that the tester took themselves as well. It looks pretty nice from the pic's regarding nice / well marked turrets.

--------------------------- Quote ----------------------
Hey everybody,

Some of you might remember me as having been around a few years ago but I disappeared. A combination of work taking over my life, and then I decided to take some quality me-time to recover from an auto accident.

I actually approached Athlon about creating this scope back when SR scopes were just coming to market prior to the rules being official. The owner of Athlon had made a name for himself in the PRS market for being open to new ideas and was bringing scopes to market with, among other things, adjustable parallax that is adj waaaay up close. So I contacted him and he was open to the idea. Bear in mind this was in the early stages of scope development for SR and a) there was no experience in the market as there is now and b) there was a different thinking about the size of the surrounding circle on a reticle. That explains the 12 MOA ID circle.... it comes from 2015 thinking.

Development first centered around a prism scope and I got hold of the prototype of this scope.
https://athlonoptics.com/product/rifle-scopes-btr-pr41-prismscope/
In short... tracking didn't cut it. to their credit Athlon took the data and went back to the drawing board with that scope. Myself, I moved on to others, eventually settling on Weaver/ISTs, of which I have a matched pair.

Time marches on, and several months back, just as I was physically able to get back to the sport, I get an email from Athlon telling me they have a 1-4.5 optic planned, and are looking at the reticle again. They can only go so far on redesign given a need to keep the thing marketable elsewhere, but they want input before its finalized. I roped in a couple of other community members after Athlon OK'd it, and we spitballed. Basically the only thing anyone will see is whats in the middle of that circle so thats all we looked at changing. After some dialogue and a couple of iterations, we were given three choices and you see the one that got picked. In a perfect world I would have reduced that circle, but that wasn't an option at the time.

More time passed, and I got another email saying the single production prototype was in Athlon's hands, and they wanted to send it to me for test/eval. I have had it on my rifle since October although my health and schedule have limited my ability to shoot to only a half dozen outings. 2 weekends ago I shot a short match in abominable weather (rain, swirling wind) and scored a personal best. And I forgot my spotting scope that day. Very short assessment is I like it and I plan to give up my Weavers permanently for one of these.

Some personal observations

  • Nice clear glass. All of my shooting with it has been in weather ranging from bad to ridiculous and I have been very pleased with the view on target.
  • Adjustable parallax down to 22 feet (note pics below the prototype goes to 10). Its graduated for use on a SR course. so far as I can tell the parallax works fine, and the 22 ft minimum means its good for hallway practice.
  • Big Freaking Turrets. Like em a lot. Firm clicks. Not $2,000 scope clicks but firm and clicky without slop. I really like the fact that elevation has only one 25 MOA revolution, so no getting lost. Production scopes are advertised as 23 MOA on a single turn but prototype is 25 as you can see below. Windage dial is just as big and clearly marked with big 1R-2R etc. markings.
  • 1/4 MOA increments. I didn't realize how much I missed this until I got it back.
  • It has reticle illumination which is of course useless. However I tried the old trick of using two CR2016's instead of a CR2032 to double the voltage and it works just fine. On a cloudy day (thats all I have had so far) its visibly red. When I did that with another Athlon scope a few years back and asked Athlon about warranty, they thought it was a neat trick and had no problem with it.
  • Its *heavy*. Not so great for any other sport but good for us. The overall impression is of a solid tank and not a delicate instrument.
  • So far as I can tell, and we all know this can change over time, tracking is accurate.
  • Its a second focal plane reticle but I don't care. I never use anything but 4.5x.
I don't have much in the way of pics as I did not plan to do a writeup when I stopped by this evening. I dug a few up from when I got the scope. One is it sitting side by side with my IST/Weaver on the rifle. Remember this is a prototype so possibly a production unit will look different

On Friday I got another email from Athlon's owner telling me they had production stock on hand.
---
Maybe I should give the longer version. The kind of graduations / increments on the scope were coarse metric and completely unsuitable for SR. The elevation turret's direction was also reversed from what we expect in a USA scope. European scopes often have an elevation turret that goes in the opposite direction. Its normal for them. Not so much for us.

Again remember this was 2015. SR optics considered as possible choices were ACOGs because ... they were service optics. So a parallax-free prism scope sounded like a good idea at the time.

EDIT: I found my post on it. At the time I made this I hadn't yet figured out the directional difference. Which reminds me the turrets were also unmarked and fingertip-sized. What you'd expect for a prism or red dot but a bad choice for SR. Looking at Athlon's imagery this morning for that scope, it now has much bigger turrets, they are marked and 0.5 moa instead of metric ... elevation is still clockwise but at least its marked clearly. So they did work it over based on my feedback, which was pretty candid.
------ End Quote -------------------

My take,
This scope is new and unproven but given the suppliers example of good customer service in the text above if I were in the market now and adjustable parallax was important to me ( hopefully that horse is dead at least in this thread... :) )
I would give one of these a try.

It may or not turn out to be good quality with repeatable clicks. Time will tell...
It will take the better part of at least a season of people using them before we will know how good they are.

George


So that is this scope> https://athlonoptics.com/product/helos-btr-1-4-5x24-atsr3-sfp-ir-moa/
 
I agree 99% with this and was trying to add a small theoretical disputation.
Clearly I failed because the objections to my posts were a lot 'bigger' than the point I was trying to make.
I get the point you were trying to make and I see where you were going with it and i actually tend to agree to an extent. The problem youre running into is service rifle shooters are an unruly bunch and they are typically stuck in their ways so you got to cut us a little slack.we just learned to walk on our hind legs a few years ago.
 
Vortex Ranger ( Viper PST Clone ) are currently back on sale at Midway... Now $299 with free shipping.

These scopes are proven by many to track well and on the rare occasions that warranty service was needed they have been stellar with fast returns at zero charge.

For those that feel they can cope with fixed parallax set at 100 yards and 1/2 minute clicks this is a bargain.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/8...nt=main-image-link&utm_campaign=vortex-ranger

Minor / semi interesting data point:
Below is a link to poll results where 427 forum members that are Service Rifle shooters voted to indicate what scope they purchased
 

Attachments

  • Scope Poll at 427 votes.JPG
    Scope Poll at 427 votes.JPG
    28.1 KB · Views: 33
One thing that I wish service rifle scope makers woud address is providing a way to focus the scope down to 5 or 10 meters for indoor/scatt dryfiring. Maybe that’s reason enough for adjustable parallax (provided you can focus close enough), although a simple optical attachment migh do the trick as well. I’ve tried other methods (apertures) without much lucky so I put up with a bit of blur.
 
One thing that I wish service rifle scope makers woud address is providing a way to focus the scope down to 5 or 10 meters for indoor/scatt dryfiring. Maybe that’s reason enough for adjustable parallax (provided you can focus close enough), although a simple optical attachment migh do the trick as well. I’ve tried other methods (apertures) without much lucky so I put up with a bit of blur.

Just last night I had to rearrange to make a space at 10 yards to dry fire with a scope that only adjusts down that far.
 
I am using the Konus XTC and have been very happy with it. Shot all of last year with it and no complaints on it. windage and elevation knobs work great and is focused perfect.
 
Thanks for the plug on the parallax calc tool George.

Parallax is irrelevant at distance with most optics that we are using because unless you totally suck your misalignment shot to shot is going to be a fraction of the exit pupil diameter.

You will impart more error from inconsistent head pressure and position break down than from misalignment of the optic to eye.

I have shot optics with parallax set @ 100, 200, 250 and 300. No discernible difference to me.

For the SCATT the vortex with 100 yd parallax can be used as us at 10 meters. You can see a relatively good solid Bullseye. A rear cap with hole helps immensely to force alignment because at 10 meters parallax is like 5 moa each way from center! I actually use the vortex as is to work on standing repeatability.

With the NF I need a front cap. I started with an 1/8th inch hole and opened up incrementally until I could get enough light through the scope to see. Ideally something equal to or slightly larger than the exit pupil diameter is a good starting point. I think I am at like 5/32 or 7/32 or something. It is a balance between light transmission and maintaining as crisp a Bullseye as possible. I use a flood light pointed at my SCATT target to help. I use a rear clear lense with hole for head alignment. More to help repeatable head position than anything else. I say it works pretty well
 

Attachments

  • A6CB8C79-5773-4474-A855-9F4C018C0183.jpeg
    A6CB8C79-5773-4474-A855-9F4C018C0183.jpeg
    362.6 KB · Views: 11

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,800
Messages
2,203,709
Members
79,130
Latest member
Jsawyer09
Back
Top