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Getting higher velocity than predicted by QL

Oh boy, this may be tough to explain.

An equally loaded cartridge will run slower in a free bore that is longer than the other. Popularly excepted.

If we know precisely the velocity difference, and what the free bore difference is , then we can calculate
Plugging in your numbers but with the default weighting factor of 0.50, the calibrated output I come up with is very similar to yours (see attached file). It is not identical in terms of pressure, but pretty close.

The two things that caught my attention were your case volume (54.91 gr, which seems relatively low), and the amount by which you have to adjust Ba to match your actual velocity (~8.9% increase). The "low" case volume may simply be inherent to the brand of brass you're using, especially if it has noticeably thicker walls than Lapua. More importantly, increasing the case volume value in the program would effectively lower pressure and require an even larger corrective increase in Ba to match the predicted and actual velocities. I have previously encountered similar QL predictions where I had to change Ba by more than 5% in order to get predicted and actual velocities to match.

It is not "ideal" to have to change Ba by that much, but when doing so, I have never had a problem when making subsequent changes to charge weight with the predicted velocity not matching the QL prediction. It cannot be ruled out that you have a batch of 4064 that is at the upper end of the burn rate range for that powder. Alternatively, there could be another reason that is not immediately clear. Was the temperature exactly 70 degrees when you measured velocity? What type of primer are you using? Another possibility is that a primer with significantly greater brisance can markedly increase velocity over a another brand of primer, even with the exact same charge weight of powder

Regardless, as long as predicted velocity matches measured velocity fairly closely over a range of charge weights, I work under the assumption that other predicted parameters such as fill ration, pressure, and barrel time are accurate within the limitations of the program. Your QL predictions fall well within the range at which I usually obtain optimized .308 loads in terms of pressure. That is to say, loads with predicted pressures in the range of 57-58K psi. With standard .308 brass, loads predicted to be in the 59.5-61.5K psi or so range, although still below SAAMI MAX, are generally hard on brass and may cause the primer pockets to become unusable after as little as 4-5 firings.

At this point, I would not be greatly concerned that your velocity is quite a bit faster than predicted by QL using only the default IMR 4064 powder input for temp and Ba. I have had plenty of Lots of various powders that gave velocities very close to those predicted using the preset Ba. But I have also had Lots that were in the neighborhood of 75-100 fps fast/slow. During load development, I generally aim for Optimized Barrel Time nodes whenever possible, using barrel times from Chris Long's OBT chart and those predicted by QL. In my hands, accuracy nodes on paper fall very close in terms of barrel time (as predicted by QL) to the values in Chris Long's table. Other factors, such as brass life, also seem to mirror the pressures predicted by QL quite well. As long as the velocities predicted by QL following "calibration" of the program for your specific setup match reasonably well, I see little reason not to accept the other outputs such as pressure and barrel time as being valid, or to go to great lengths by changing a number of other parameters in the program merely to improve the output by a negligible amount. QL outputs are, by definition, "estimates" or "predictions". They are certainly useful for expediting the load development process, but their true "accuracy" must always be questioned, and they can never replace the outputs of targets generated by actually testing various loads. In other words, the test targets should always have the final say. Once I am convinced that the target is telling me I have a good load, as long as the predictions in QL seem to match reasonably well with actual measured data, I don't feel the need to adjust the program further. IMO - you're really just tweeking factors that are already down in the noise at that point.

View attachment 1079988


The attachment doesn't look good at all.

IMR4064 is way too 'fast' for the components used.
It is not on an node, nodes will fall with a 22" bbl at 1.0126-1.1270 & 1.2018 mS.
Do you measure barrel from bolt face to muzzle?

0


What a good load looks like.
 
The attachment doesn't look good at all.

IMR4064 is way too 'fast' for the components used.
It is not on an node, nodes will fall with a 22" bbl at 1.0126-1.1270 & 1.2018 mS.
Do you measure barrel from bolt face to muzzle?

0


What a good load looks like.
To BCBRAD:

IMR4064 is listed in Sierra's reloading manual for 175 and 180 gr. bullets. And I *think* it's what Federal uses in its 175 gr. GMM ammunition.

What makes you believe it's way too 'fast' for the components used?

And your 'good load' attachment is not readable in this thread. Please re-post.

Thanks
 
There you go, notice that the Pmax line is over laid by the Z1 line. This means all deterrent chemicals in the powder is consumed. If the Z1 line is to the right the powder is slow for application and is in the fizzle stage. If the Z1 line is to the left of Pmax the deterrent chemicals are still at work and not fully consumed, this begets differing results. The load is on a node for barrel length.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=dGtqZlhyMEhlYjdKNDctc21ocXAyQkJhMnYtQzB3
 
There you go, notice that the Pmax line is over laid by the Z1 line. This means all deterrent chemicals in the powder is consumed. If the Z1 line is to the right the powder is slow for application and is in the fizzle stage. If the Z1 line is to the left of Pmax the deterrent chemicals are still at work and not fully consumed, this begets differing results. The load is on a node for barrel length.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=dGtqZlhyMEhlYjdKNDctc21ocXAyQkJhMnYtQzB3
Very interesting!
How do you find a powder or load where the lines overlay each other?
thanks
 
Last edited:
You are asking how I get a load?

its about the combination of components, weight of powder, and dimensions of the cartridge, 0.000" of jump, COL etc. I start with powders that are generally good for the cartridge tho.

But , the first thing to do is pick a powder and bullet that will generally work with what you have. In the load for the 280ai I have tryed 162gn ELD-X, it was a decent load but did not hit all the markers.

I think savage dasher uses H-4350 in his 6 dashers. I do as well as it hits all the markers, very few competitors use H4350 but lean heavily to Varget or RL-15. RL-15 is hard to get in my area so I did not pursue that. I use Varget in a second Dasher which is more of a coyote/steel fun rifle. H4350 in the Dasher used for competition.

This 'modelling' of components are done from my PC. When i get one that looks good, load 5 rounds and check velocity, adjust burn rate (Ba) if need be to put the model in line with reality, now charge weight is adjusted to get a barrel time. Load and shoot another 5 to verify. :)

Some combinations will not get the over laid Pmax and Z1, depending on your accuracy requirement it is acceptable as long as on paper accuracy is there.

Hope this helps.
 
Last edited:
You are asking how I get a load?

Some combinations will not get the over laid Pmax and Z1, depending on your accuracy requirement it is acceptable as long as on paper accuracy is there.

Hope this helps.
I was really wondering how you developed loads where the Pmax and Z1 lines overlay each other.

For example, the Sierra reloading manual for the .308 Win. 180 gr. SBT bullet shows the accuracy load as 39.5 gr. of Viht N540 using a Federal case trimmed to 2.005", a 210M primer, a COAL of 2.80", and a 28" barrel. The predicted MV of 2405 fps is essentially the same as the MV in the manual of 2400 fps. And the Z1 and Pmax lines are very close to each other, but not quite together/the same.
 
I have not modeled the scenario you have described.
Depending on the components used I have found it is not always possible to get the Pmax and Z1 line to over lay, very close is good tho.
The example I have shown in a few posts back has a domed pressure peak as opposed to a sharp one, sort of Appellation Mt compared to the Rocky Mts.
The curve with the flattened elongated peak allows the Z1 to be off but not effect were the deterrent chemicals consumption to much as the variance is not great in pressure, this is very close to an OCW load, an over lay is exact.
If the barrel time (mS) hits the marker for bbl length then it will be a very good load, a reason a 308Win is inherently accurate, it will do that with many powder bullet combinations.

To model the sample load I would need the distance from ogive to lands (to establish start pressure) and the interior volume of the case in grains of water (combustion space), temperature (degrees F) comes into play as well.

With that I would load 5 rounds and check velocity, adjust powder charge to reflect reality, the result is usually the best the platform will produce.

A quick modelling using defaults, adjusting Ba 5%, tells me that the manual hit the lower node (at least close to), the higher node is at slightly more than 62,000 psi which is the limit for the 308W.

I do not use defaults but do my own weights and measures.
 
Last edited:
I have not modeled the scenario you have described.
Depending on the components used I have found it is not always possible to get the Pmax and Z1 line to over lay, very close is good tho.
The example I have shown in a few posts back has a domed pressure peak as opposed to a sharp one, sort of Appellation Mt compared to the Rocky Mts.
The curve with the flattened elongated peak allows the Z1 to be off but not effect were the deterrent chemicals consumption to much as the variance is not great in pressure, this is very close to an OCW load, an over lay is exact.
If the barrel time (mS) hits the marker for bbl length then it will be a very good load, a reason a 308Win is inherently accurate, it will do that with many powder bullet combinations.

To model the sample load I would need the distance from ogive to lands (to establish start pressure) and the interior volume of the case in grains of water (combustion space), temperature (degrees F) comes into play as well.

With that I would load 5 rounds and check velocity, adjust powder charge to reflect reality, the result is usually the best the platform will produce.

A quick modelling using defaults, adjusting Ba 5%, tells me that the manual hit the lower node (at least close to), the higher node is at slightly more than 62,000 psi which is the limit for the 308W.

I do not use defaults but do my own weights and measures.
Very helpful, thank you.

I usually seat .308 bullets .018" off the lands (measured from the ogive). How do you calculate starting pressure and where did you get the formula for that calculation?
 
I have never seen a powder that the z1 pmax stacked that didn’t shoot
The further down the barrel where 95 % Of velocity line is the easy it is on chambers
I also lit the stacking just before the peak
 
I have never seen a powder that the z1 pmax stacked that didn’t shoot
The further down the barrel where 95 % Of velocity line is the easy it is on chambers
I also lit the stacking just before the peak
The 95% line is 95% of propellant burnt, not 95% of velocity.
Thought we had you straightened out on that misconception of yours years ago.... guess not... lol ;)
 
Very helpful, thank you.

I usually seat .308 bullets .018" off the lands (measured from the ogive). How do you calculate starting pressure and where did you get the formula for that calculation?

Shot start pressure default is 3625psi, if you jam add 7200psi, so these two represent 10,825 psi.
If you are 0.018" off, multiply 18x29= 522psi. The 29psi is for each thou off. Depending on the cartridge it seems to be between 29 and 31 psi, gets you real close tho.
10,825-522= 10,303 psi start pressure.

Click into the drop down, you see 146psi, this is for every 0.005" off the lands.

Many people chase seating depth, this is just fine tuning pressure thus velocity. On QL you test/simulate seating depths from your PC if you choose. I just set COL to magazine length or single load at 10-15 thou off.
 
With the QL method of finding a load, you must have accurate velocities for input, everything revolves around velocity. (Just as with rotating equipment ,everything revolves around rpm) I am a retired Vibration Analysis tech.
 
I follow Chris Longs table for barrel times and barrel lengths.
Good it hasn’t worked for me
Could be that I work with a tuners
I have 5 different dashers with 5 different barrels lingth and twist rate
The lingth difference is 5 inches and all shoot the same powder drop
 
Shot start pressure default is 3625psi, if you jam add 7200psi, so these two represent 10,825 psi.
If you are 0.018" off, multiply 18x29= 522psi. The 29psi is for each thou off. Depending on the cartridge it seems to be between 29 and 31 psi, gets you real close tho.
10,825-522= 10,303 psi start pressure.

Click into the drop down, you see 146psi, this is for every 0.005" off the lands.

Many people chase seating depth, this is just fine tuning pressure thus velocity. On QL you test/simulate seating depths from your PC if you choose. I just set COL to magazine length or single load at 10-15 thou off.
I followed you on the start pressure calculation when the bullet is touching the lands, but you lost me after that.

Where'd you get the 29 to 31 psi for each 0.001" off" ?
 

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