Arizona State Long Range Results, any information?

[raptor1ronin]

What caliber was John Moreali shooting?

I was shooting my .308 with 185 juggernauts

 

[Warren Dean]

What caliber was John Moreali shooting?

308. He sort of gave up on the 223.....lol

 

[abersfelderami]

308. He sort of gave up on the 223.....lol

What do you mean "sort of"? No way

 

[raptor1ronin]

308. He sort of gave up on the 223.....lol

Ha only for the Long range game. 24 MPH head winds would have sent my bullets to flagstaff lol.

 

[abersfelderami]

Ha only for the Long range game. 24 MPH head winds would have sent my bullets to flagstaff lol.

95gr?

 

[raptor1ronin]

95gr?

Still shoot the 90. Didn’t have luck with the 95 yet.

 

[Scott Harris]

95gr?

We all want to believe the 223 can be made to be competitive at 1K. I spent 2 years trying to make it work. On a really calm day, you just might have a good result that will convince you the 223 can do it. But, at some point, as an f-class shooter, you will decide to stop wasting your time and start doing what everyone else is doing at 1K.....use a 308. People often point out that the 185 Juggernauts and the 90 VLD have the same BC and can be shot at approximately the same muzzle velocities. That means they should shoot the same at 1K, with the 223 having the edge due to lower recoil. Well, go try it and get back with us. In my experience, there was no comparison. The 223 falls apart in any decent wind while the Juggernauts continue to earn their name with amazing waterlines and outsized performance.

I do think there is a difference between F-class and sling...have seen many shooters do extremely well with a 223 in the sling division. I think this has to do with a target that is a bit more forgiving as the 223 opens up just a little at 1K. The f-class target is extremely unforgiving and you get a lot of elevation & horizontal 9s as the groups open up. looks good on paper, but.... Of course, this will continue to be debated till the end of time. When I get to shoot next to a 223 die-hard, I just smile and my inner voice thanks him for giving me an advantage right off the get go.

600 yards and in....well that is an entirely different story....I hate those little lasers!

 

[raptor1ronin]

We all want to believe the 223 can be made to be competitive at 1K. I spent 2 years trying to make it work. On a really calm day, you just might have a good result that will convince you the 223 can do it. But, at some point, as an f-class shooter, you will decide to stop wasting your time and start doing what everyone else is doing at 1K.....use a 308. People often point out that the 185 Juggernauts and the 90 VLD have the same BC and can be shot at approximately the same muzzle velocities. That means they should shoot the same at 1K, with the 223 having the edge due to lower recoil. Well, go try it and get back with us. In my experience, there was no comparison. The 223 falls apart in any decent wind while the Juggernauts continue to earn their name with amazing waterlines and outsized performance.

I do think there is a difference between F-class and sling...have seen many shooters do extremely well with a 223 in the sling division. I think this has to do with a target that is a bit more forgiving as the 223 opens up just a little at 1K. The f-class target is extremely unforgiving and you get a lot of elevation & horizontal 9s as the groups open up. looks good on paper, but.... Of course, this will continue to be debated till the end of time. When I get to shoot next to a 223 die-hard, I just smile and my inner voice thanks him for giving me an advantage right off the get go.

600 yards and in....well that is an entirely different story....I hate those little lasers!

Yes you do Scott ... ha ha

 

[abersfelderami]

We all want to believe the 223 can be made to be competitive at 1K. I spent 2 years trying to make it work. On a really calm day, you just might have a good result that will convince you the 223 can do it. But, at some point, as an f-class shooter, you will decide to stop wasting your time and start doing what everyone else is doing at 1K.....use a 308. People often point out that the 185 Juggernauts and the 90 VLD have the same BC and can be shot at approximately the same muzzle velocities. That means they should shoot the same at 1K, with the 223 having the edge due to lower recoil. Well, go try it and get back with us. In my experience, there was no comparison. The 223 falls apart in any decent wind while the Juggernauts continue to earn their name with amazing waterlines and outsized performance.

I do think there is a difference between F-class and sling...have seen many shooters do extremely well with a 223 in the sling division. I think this has to do with a target that is a bit more forgiving as the 223 opens up just a little at 1K. The f-class target is extremely unforgiving and you get a lot of elevation & horizontal 9s as the groups open up. looks good on paper, but.... Of course, this will continue to be debated till the end of time. When I get to shoot next to a 223 die-hard, I just smile and my inner voice thanks him for giving me an advantage right off the get go.

600 yards and in....well that is an entirely different story....I hate those little lasers!

I know that Scott, you told me this story many times, but you're also a known .223 hater..

 

[Scott Harris]

I know that Scott, you told me this story many times, but you're also a known .223 hater.

with your username .... I have no idea who you are....so sorry for repeating myself! 223 hater? that's news to me.

 

[abersfelderami]

I'm sorry Scott,
I was only joking, I always appreciate your comments (you're the grownup here) , your opinion is always important to me and you are absolutely right about .223 performance. Knowing John's affinity for .223 and your opinion using it at 1000 yards, I was joking around.

Congratulation to Devon,
Regards,
Jan

 

[raptor1ronin]

I'm sorry Scott,
I was only joking, I always appreciate your comments (you're the grownup here) , your opinion is always important to me and you are absolutely right about .223 performance. Knowing John's affinity for .223 and your opinion using it at 1000 yards, I was joking around.

Congratulation to Devon,
Regards,
Jan

I love my .223 for anything 600 yards and closer no doubt. However Scott is correct. We have been shooting together for many years now. And im sure he's kicking himself a few times for helping me grow in the sport and sometimes on a good day I get a win on him (very seldom).He's a great teacher and wonderful father to his kids and husband to his wife who shoots lights out and has helped me grow. But the .223 at 1K just wont win on a consistent basis. I shot the .223 at 1K for a year and i wont lie it helped me grow in this sport rapidly. You definitely learn the wind faster. I even went from sharp shooter to master because of it and shooting it. But like most of us we all want to beat the next person and grow. Scott and I had many talks and the .308 is the only way to move to the top and stay there.

But in no way will I hesitate to pull it out at a 600 yard comp and kick some .308 butts

 

[Ned Ludd]

We all want to believe the 223 can be made to be competitive at 1K. I spent 2 years trying to make it work. On a really calm day, you just might have a good result that will convince you the 223 can do it. But, at some point, as an f-class shooter, you will decide to stop wasting your time and start doing what everyone else is doing at 1K.....use a 308. People often point out that the 185 Juggernauts and the 90 VLD have the same BC and can be shot at approximately the same muzzle velocities. That means they should shoot the same at 1K, with the 223 having the edge due to lower recoil. Well, go try it and get back with us. In my experience, there was no comparison. The 223 falls apart in any decent wind while the Juggernauts continue to earn their name with amazing waterlines and outsized performance.

I do think there is a difference between F-class and sling...have seen many shooters do extremely well with a 223 in the sling division. I think this has to do with a target that is a bit more forgiving as the 223 opens up just a little at 1K. The f-class target is extremely unforgiving and you get a lot of elevation & horizontal 9s as the groups open up. looks good on paper, but.... Of course, this will continue to be debated till the end of time. When I get to shoot next to a 223 die-hard, I just smile and my inner voice thanks him for giving me an advantage right off the get go.

600 yards and in....well that is an entirely different story....I hate those little lasers!

I'm not sure I'd call it much of a debate, there is really very little data support the .223 with 90s at 1000 yd, because very few people are using them...maybe most F-TR shooters don't relish the punishment . I've shot the 90s in matches at 1000 yds on a number of occasions. In my hands, the 90s do get blown around more than the high BC 200+ gr .308 bullets, but not more than the 185 Juggernauts. I've shot both at Range 117 under typical wind conditions for that range and my scores were always substantially better with the 90 VLDs than the Jugs. In other words, in my experience they behave with respect to windage exactly like their BC/velocity suggests they should. That shouldn't be surprising, this sport is all about physics, and BC is BC; there is no valid reason I know of for any bullet to start behaving in a manner vastly different than its BC would suggest at longer distance, as long as it isn't suffering from gyroscopic or dynamic instability. I view shooting the 90s as analogous to shooting 155s in a .308. Under the right circumstances (and in the right hands) they can work, but there are better choices for most F-TR shooters.

In my opinion, the biggest drawback to the .223 with 90s is that is it very difficult to get the ES for a .223 load with 90s consistently below about 15-25 fps. That is substantially greater than is readily achievable with a good .308 load and as a result, there is more vertical at 1000 yd with the .223/90s. I also believe it's possible to win with a .223 in LR, but you have to be smart and pick the right battles. I wouldn't show up to an important match with one unless I was absolutely certain the wind conditions would be mild. In that respect, I view the .223 as just another tool in the box. But like any tool, you have to pick the right one for the job, and the .223/90s is not always the right tool. As John noted, pulling out the .223 with the wind conditions you all had for this match would have been foolhardy to say the least. Having said that, it might have actually been a blessing in disguise. With the wind as challenging as it was, you would at least have had the peace of mind knowing that you couldn't blame all the misses on jacket failures LOL.

 

[Scott Harris]

... there is no valid reason I know of for any bullet to start behaving in a manner vastly different than its BC would suggest at longer distance, as long as it isn't suffering from gyroscopic or dynamic instability.

...In my opinion, the biggest drawback to the .223 with 90s is that is it very difficult to get the ES for a .223 load with 90s consistently below about 15-25 fps. That is substantially greater than is readily achievable with a good .308 load ...

Hey Greg, maybe you answered the question by splicing your two comments above together... At 1K the higher ES is much more important than at shorter distances....lot more elevation.

 

[Ned Ludd]

My guess would be that the higher ES is a likely contributor. Otherwise, I'm hard-pressed to come up with any reason the 90 VLDs would display anomalous behavior at distances past 600 yd. Although such cases do exist, the 168 SMKs being the prime example, we know in that case the bullet suffers from dynamic instability past about 700 yds or so due to the boattail design. I am not aware of such a design issue with the 90 VLDs...other than the fact that they start to run out of gas at 1000 yd LOL. But in my hands, the same could be said for 30 cal 155 or 185 bullets. One of these days, I will probably give the 90s a go in a more high profile match at 1000 yd...and then pray that the weather forecaster wasn't lying when they said the wind would be minimal .

 

[rcgill]

 

[Warren Dean]

Bullet weight and retained energy are the issues, I think. In a vacuum, the 90s would perform the same as the 185s. But they shed velocity quicker and are more affected by wind because they are so light. Just my observation.

 

[ShootDots]

Bullet weight and retained energy are the issues, I think. In a vacuum, the 90s would perform the same as the 185s. But they shed velocity quicker and are more affected by wind because they are so light. Just my observation.

Hello Warren! I am certainly no ballistician, however, I believe your interpretation is a good one. I know that the ballistic programs take into account the weight of the bullet, but in my opinion not enough "weight" is placed into the calculations to accurately account for bullet weight. That is why I am and have been convinced for quite awhile that there should be a separate B.C. number for weight / wind drift. The calculations for "come-ups" is excellent. However, in my opinion, the same calculators are lacking on wind drift. I can give you a few examples from MY personal experiences that would defy the ballistic calculators in real life... Just my 2 cents..