Distance to lands question

[Lefty Trigger]

I measure all my new bullets to lands with the "stoney point" gauge that Hornady sells along with a modified case. I was recently shown a different method using a sized piece of brass (no primer or powder) seat the bullet slightly in the brass and chamber the round using the gun as the seating tool. If the gun "marks" the bullet with grooves or captures the bullet and pulls it out of the case your either too tight on neck tension or too loose, the bullet should seat and come out with no lands marks in the bullet. I tried this and got some interesting results.
My Sierra 168gr SMK measured 2.252 with the Hornady tools, got 2.302 with the rifle method .050 difference. The Nosler 175gr RDF was 2.249 with the tools and got 2.294 using the rifle, .045 difference. Anybody try it this way? Which is right since there is such a huge difference?

 

[Chrs_28]

What are you trying to measure, your distance to lands or neck tension?

 

[Lefty Trigger]

Distance to lands, I have always used the stoney point tools but was surprised by the length doing the rifle seating method. Just curious if it is a real method or not, the older fella that explained it to me swears by it?

 

[kvd]

45 or 50 thousandths is a big difference. Many shooters on this site use Alex Wheeler's method for finding the lands detailed in this video:

 

[Bc'z]

I measure all my new bullets to lands with the "stoney point" gauge that Hornady sells along with a modified case. I was recently shown a different method using a sized piece of brass (no primer or powder) seat the bullet slightly in the brass and chamber the round using the gun as the seating tool. If the gun "marks" the bullet with grooves or captures the bullet and pulls it out of the case your either too tight on neck tension or too loose, the bullet should seat and come out with no lands marks in the bullet. I tried this and got some interesting results.
My Sierra 168gr SMK measured 2.252 with the Hornady tools, got 2.302 with the rifle method .050 difference. The Nosler 175gr RDF was 2.294 with the tools and got 2.249 using the rifle, .045 difference. Anybody try it this way? Which is right since there is such a huge difference?

I think you're jammed.
I posted this method I've been using for 20 years in best method for finding lands.
Use an unsized fired case. Now gently flatten one side of neck by pressing against your press/ something harder than brass.
Paint bearing surface with sharpie. Gently start bullet in case, then guide it into chamber and close bolt.
Repeat a half dozen times measuring each. You're going to have to push bullet back in to where sharpie has been removed to take measurements. Recolor bullet and repeat.
You will get some consistent readings.
This is jam length. I back off this # by
.015-.020 to begin load development.
I learned this method in nosler load manual.

I believe with a sized case its holding bullet to much and forcing a hard jam.

Compare this to your other measurements.
I'm thinking it may provide interesting results. I'm curious to what your findings will be.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

I think you're jammed.
I posted this method I've been using for 20 years in best method for finding lands.
Use an unsized fired case. Now gently flatten one side of neck by pressing against your press/ something harder than brass.
Paint bearing surface with sharpie. Gently start bullet in case, then guide it into chamber and close bolt.
Repeat a half dozen times measuring each. You're going to have to push bullet back in to where sharpie has been removed to take measurements. Recolor bullet and repeat.
You will get some consistent readings.
This is jam length. I back off this # by
.015-.020 to begin load development.
I learned this method in nosler load manual.

I believe with a sized case its holding bullet to much and forcing a hard jam.

Compare this to your other measurements.
I'm thinking it may provide interesting results. I'm curious to what your findings will be.

I don't know so I ask to learn but if it was jammed wouldn't it "stick" in the lands and be pulled out of the case? I will also try your method and see what the outcome is....

 

[Bc'z]

I don't know so I ask to learn but if it was jammed wouldn't it "stick" in the lands and be pulled out of the case? I will also try your method and see what the outcome is....

I'm thinking the neck tension is screwing things up.
Now if you were to take a dremel tool and put 2-3 vertical slits in the sized neck would be a different story.
With the method I use your bullet may get stuck in the rifling tap but of rifle on floor or use a cleaning rod to dis lodge.

 

[Falfan2017]

Seems like the Wheeler method is hard to improve on. Most repeatable system I’ve seen.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

I'm thinking the neck tension is screwing things up.
Now if you were to take a dremel tool and put 2-3 vertical slits in the sized neck would be a different story.
With the method I use your bullet may get stuck in the rifling tap but of rifle on floor or use a cleaning rod to dis lodge.

This happens when I use the stoney point tool as well.

 

[gambleone]

45 or 50 thousandths is a big difference. Many shooters on this site use Alex Wheeler's method for finding the lands detailed in this video:

Best of the best methods, Period. Leaves no room for questions.

 

[Bc'z]

This happens when I use the stoney point tool as well.

I'm thinking the method I learned from nosler will give you repeatable results and be close to your stoney point.
Now I'm really curious!!
Edit....Only flatten case neck just enough to hold bullet.

 

[Crow]

Seems like the Wheeler method is hard to improve on. Most repeatable system I’ve seen.

+1

 

[Bc'z]

45 or 50 thousandths is a big difference. Many shooters on this site use Alex Wheeler's method for finding the lands detailed in this video:

I am sure this is probably the best method to measure distance to the lands.
But I would like to point out not everyone has the ability or means to do this.
Something to ponder.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

I'm thinking the method I learned from nosler will give you repeatable results and be close to your stoney point.
Now I'm really curious!!
Edit....Only flatten case neck just enough to hold bullet.

Ok just tried the method you mentioned, fired case with flat edge on neck and bullet colored with marker on the sides. Chambered it several times taking measurements and the results are really close to the Stoney point tool.
The 168gr with my tools 2.252 your way 2.254
The Nosler 175gr RDF with my tools 2.249 your way 2.250
I think your right, I was driving them hard into the lands with the neck tension. Hard to believe that pushing them that far into the lands it didn't mark the bullets, not even a scratch.

 

[Bc'z]

Ok just tried the method you mentioned, fired case with flat edge on neck and bullet colored with marker on the sides. Chambered it several times taking measurements and the results are really close to the Stoney point tool.
The 168gr with my tools 2.252 your way 2.254
The Nosler 175gr RDF with my tools 2.249 your way 2.250
I think your right, I was driving them hard into the lands with the neck tension. Hard to believe that pushing them that far into the lands it didn't mark the bullets, not even a scratch.

Wow, good to know.
So by using the nosler method and backing off .0015-.002 the #'s pretty much match your stoney point.
Thank a million for giving it a try and posting,
It reassures me in my loading technique also.
Brett
Edit, now during load work you can only go deeper into case, unless of course your rifle shoots better at hard jam.

 

[dttheliman]

Seems like the Wheeler method is hard to improve on. Most repeatable system I’ve seen.

After trying all voodoo methods over the eons let Wheeler show you the light - this way just plain works.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

After trying all voodoo methods over the eons let Wheeler show you the light - this way just plain works.

While I wont disagree that probably is THE best method I prefer to not have to take out my ejector unless is broke. Last time I tried to take apart my bolt head that tiny little spring loaded pin got away from me and went into the twilight zone. I was down for over a week waiting for a replacement, I now have a few spares on hand,... but still

 

[Liven The Dream]

45 or 50 thousandths is a big difference. Many shooters on this site use Alex Wheeler's method for finding the lands detailed in this video:

Thanks for this post … Add me to the list.
I have winter to check my rifles.

 

[mikeeg02]

This happens when I use the stoney point tool as well.

Measure the headspace of the stoney point case and your sized case. If you use a fired case measure that too.

Also, if you're using the bolt and a case, it's different than the stoney point that gets pushed in to the shoulder. SHOULD only be a couple of thousandths. But depending on your practice it could be a lot.

Because when you measure, its from the base of the case, this does and will affect your measurement of base to ogive.

Using the bolt head without an ejector to hold the case removes this variable. But if you use the stoney point, you should definitely compare its headspace to your cases.

I make my own stoney point cases to eliminate this variable.

 

[JFrank]

I have been using the Hornday L&L tool with the modified case, I compare a fully FF case to the modified case by way of a Wilson case gauge, the headspace is almost identical. Just lucky perhaps however I'm getting a repeatable jamb number as a starting point.
Now if I had a custom action that stripped easier than Savage or more confidence in my ability I would use the Wheeler method.
J