Left hand twist barrels?
- Thread starter muleman69
- Start date
I very seriously doubt that it matters. Frank Gali is a huge fan of left hand gain twist, and I think he really overstates the benefit. To my knowledge Frank is not a competitive marksman and more of a professional instructor and gear reviewer. I also think that Frank tends to follow whatever David Tubb believes.
For example he changed his Tikka factory barrel to a Bartlein left gain twist and picked up velocity and he attributed it to being a gain twist. A factory Sako barrel with whatever chamber they use vs. a Bartlein with a different chamber is not an apple to apples comparison.
I have shot Lilja barrels, Kreiger, and Bartlein barrels. The 3 Groove Lilja experienced less throat erosion over a similar round count and velocities about 50fps higher than the Kreiger with the same chamber.
However I will not unequivocally say that Lilja 3 Groove barrels are longer lasting or faster; I suspect they could be...but in 6 months Bartlein might get a new batch of steel that lasts longer, or my barrel might have been an exception. It also might experience less throat erosion but the groups open up at the same round count.
Applied Ballistics actually tested the effect of twist on velocity and it's pretty negligible.
As a matter of fact I think the benefit is mainly in perception...if you think your equipment is unequivocally better...you will shoot better. I think Palma shooters chased Quadlock actions for so long because it was just..."better".
If you did a blind test and told someone to shoot identical rifles of left and right twist...they wouldn't be able to tell you the difference. Only after you tell them that rifle B is left hand gain twist they might notice... because placebo effect.
All of this is to say...look at the top of the leaderboards. The guys that get there are not rushing to replace their right twist barrels with left twist, or gain twist, or anything really.
There's a learning curve to shooting; new guys are happy with anything that shoots and want to focus on shooting, guys that are in the middle chase the next piece of gear, and guys at the top just want to focus on shooting again. In some ways the new shooters indifference to gear is the right mindset.
For example he changed his Tikka factory barrel to a Bartlein left gain twist and picked up velocity and he attributed it to being a gain twist. A factory Sako barrel with whatever chamber they use vs. a Bartlein with a different chamber is not an apple to apples comparison.
I have shot Lilja barrels, Kreiger, and Bartlein barrels. The 3 Groove Lilja experienced less throat erosion over a similar round count and velocities about 50fps higher than the Kreiger with the same chamber.
However I will not unequivocally say that Lilja 3 Groove barrels are longer lasting or faster; I suspect they could be...but in 6 months Bartlein might get a new batch of steel that lasts longer, or my barrel might have been an exception. It also might experience less throat erosion but the groups open up at the same round count.
Applied Ballistics actually tested the effect of twist on velocity and it's pretty negligible.
As a matter of fact I think the benefit is mainly in perception...if you think your equipment is unequivocally better...you will shoot better. I think Palma shooters chased Quadlock actions for so long because it was just..."better".
If you did a blind test and told someone to shoot identical rifles of left and right twist...they wouldn't be able to tell you the difference. Only after you tell them that rifle B is left hand gain twist they might notice... because placebo effect.
All of this is to say...look at the top of the leaderboards. The guys that get there are not rushing to replace their right twist barrels with left twist, or gain twist, or anything really.
There's a learning curve to shooting; new guys are happy with anything that shoots and want to focus on shooting, guys that are in the middle chase the next piece of gear, and guys at the top just want to focus on shooting again. In some ways the new shooters indifference to gear is the right mindset.
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How well do you know Frank Gali? I think he is more of a competitive shooter than what you might think? Maybe not in BR matches etc....but Frank does compete!
Also being as it is/was Veterans Day....maybe go over on Snipers Hide and take a moment and thank him for his service....Just saying.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
So are you saying nobody would notice if you gave them a left twist barrel and their wind calls were opposite of what they expect? I guess a shooter that wasnt familiar with where the wind pushes their bullets may not know
I apologize if my comment came across as a "Lets bash Frank" kind of comment. I know he catches enough crap on Facebook and other social media, so I am not trying to add to the dog-pile. Frank was not meant to be the focus of my comment. I've met Frank a few times, and I think he's a nice guy, and maybe has a little bit too much of the Marine Corps left in him. The guy that taught me how to shoot was also a Marine, and is cut from just about the same cloth as Frank. Marines tend to be a lot more definitive in their beliefs than us Army folk; at least that has been my experience.
For example, my mentor was extremely adamant that cut rifled barrels are better than button rifled barrels. If it isn't made by Bartlein or Kreiger he doesn't want it on his guns. The only exception to that rule is Lilja, and that was only after seeing a whole bunch of Lilja barrels go on guns and actually shoot well. He's a pretty smart guy too, and was at one point pretty competitive; won a bunch of sniper comps in the 90's, went Distinguished Rifleman and earned his Highmaster card with an M14. He also builds the most accurate M14's I've ever seen. But he is a Marine, and holy hell is it hard to get him to change his mind about something.
I should have probably added the caveat (ewwww I hate that word) that I didn't mean that he doesn't shoot in competitions, but rather that his primary drive is not the competitive shooting world. And that's not a mark against Frank; I think if he wanted to, he could compete in whatever long range discipline he wanted to.
I am not saying that he is not a credible source of info; he is definitely listening to some smart people, and is smart in his own right. However that lack of experience in seriously pursuing competition does temper how much gravitas I will place in his advice.
When he dismisses F-Class as just "Belly Benchrest" (and he is not the only one to do so) and not "real marksmanship" he hurts his credibility with me. I think the Tactical Rifle community is especially susceptible to this as well. One of my huge pet-peeves that I am probably equally guilty of is hand-waiving someone else's serious pursuit of Marksmanship because it's not the discipline I choose to compete in.
I have seen too many really great shooters switch from one discipline to another and totally mop the floor with the true believers. The old joke is "Whats the hardest thing about being a Smallbore shooter?....Having to tell your mom that you're gay"...I hate to break it to all the really manly totally straight center fire shooters...but anyone that is remotely competitive at a National level in smallbore can whip your ass up and down a Highpower range with a month of training.
Furthermore, I would be willing to bet that anyone that has put the effort into being nationally competitive in F-Class could do well in PRS if they dedicated the same amount of effort...even though F-Class isn't real marksmanship.
This comment got really long...
D.Stone, Well said!
Yea maybe his shooting discipline is a different from F Class etc...and his views might be a little different or should I say he comes at it from a different angle. I know Frank shot in a half a dozen matches this year. On top of that he does send a lot of rounds down range and he can put a view onto the table that some might not think of. So we all can learn from each other and possibly apply what you or I do and use it in a different sport.
Yes I agree.....with your comment about a different shooter from a different background in shooting sports can very quickly transition from one of the sports to another and do very well at it. At times I say it's like a guys who play baseball. One plays softball and another hardball. The tools of the trade over lap and are similar but not identical.
Most should also note that Frank never asks us for a free stick (barrel). Most of the time he gets his stuff from a stocking dealer and does pay for the barrel or bullets or getting his rifle put together etc....he just wants good stuff. So even though he might say this or that and do a test/write up on different subjects....I feel he does it with honesty and a open mind.
Don't worry about the long comment....glad you came back to it!
Later, Frank
Yea maybe his shooting discipline is a different from F Class etc...and his views might be a little different or should I say he comes at it from a different angle. I know Frank shot in a half a dozen matches this year. On top of that he does send a lot of rounds down range and he can put a view onto the table that some might not think of. So we all can learn from each other and possibly apply what you or I do and use it in a different sport.
Yes I agree.....with your comment about a different shooter from a different background in shooting sports can very quickly transition from one of the sports to another and do very well at it. At times I say it's like a guys who play baseball. One plays softball and another hardball. The tools of the trade over lap and are similar but not identical.
Most should also note that Frank never asks us for a free stick (barrel). Most of the time he gets his stuff from a stocking dealer and does pay for the barrel or bullets or getting his rifle put together etc....he just wants good stuff. So even though he might say this or that and do a test/write up on different subjects....I feel he does it with honesty and a open mind.
Don't worry about the long comment....glad you came back to it!
Later, Frank
I know it’s not a real answer but every time I see this thread pop back up all I can think of is my days running a LGS and joking with customers who asked that the hardest part of owning a left handed (or left twisted) gun was finding left handed or twisted ammo. The look on their face was always priceless...
Sorry to interupt, please let the serious answers continue....
Sorry to interupt, please let the serious answers continue....
Mr. Green, I come here to accurate shooter to avoid anything to do with Ol' Know it all Frank. Let's try to keep it that way. On a side note, he shot in exactly one national level PRS match this year. He finished in the second half of shooters, or as I like to say, "below the crease". He then decided it was up to him to change the future of that sport. I respect you, I respect the barrels you make and am not trying to pick a fight with you.
Cheers,
Pedro
In an attempt to get us back on track, I think the thought that left twist barrels give a shooter any perceptible advantage is purely speculative. I have shot both and they both preformed great, but I could tell any difference. A 1-2 mile an hour wind would negate any wind benefit of the twist direction. Countering Coriolis is really reaching. However, I think people should keep trying new things and new products. I know the NM guys swear by Bartlein gain twist barrels. If someone could show a repeatable effect (on target or score) I might be onboard. Either way, I will still buy left-twist barrels made by Mark Chanlynn, not because of the twist, but because Mark makes excellent barrels.
It's been raining all day here, and I have had a good bit too much coffee.
My hot take is this,
It's winter so we are getting lost in minutia.
If I was given the choice between left or right twist barrels of the same brand, I would take a left twist. The left hand twist will help cancel out some of the Coriolis effect experienced in the Northern Hemisphere. It's a good idea, but it's practically unnoticeable. A lot of guys shoot without doing any calculations for SD or CE. Even with a left twist barrel, Applied Ballistics is saying that I would still have to add a click right to be in the center on a 0 mph wind. With a right twist it say's I would have to put 2 clicks to the left.
With my right twist barreled PRS guns, I'll just add one or two left clicks of left wind when shooting over 500 yards. A lot of the time I just leave it at 1 or 2 left.
The second reason is that a left twist barrel will torque into a right handed shooter. Some guys really swear this matters. I personally think it probably matters more on lighter rifles; Frank Green says he has noticed it when switching from Enfield to Springfield rifles. I know that during competition I am laser focused on the whole shooting thing that a lot of the little things we fret about on the internet go away. I have never during the course of a match noticed my rifle torquing one way or the other. Nor have I noticed other things like my Surgeon action not being as smooth as whatever the latest best action is. Hell, I think of shooting a tuned 700 in competition just to bruise some egos.
More than left or right twist, I choose my barrels based on whether or not it's currently in stock.
My hot take is this,
It's winter so we are getting lost in minutia.
If I was given the choice between left or right twist barrels of the same brand, I would take a left twist. The left hand twist will help cancel out some of the Coriolis effect experienced in the Northern Hemisphere. It's a good idea, but it's practically unnoticeable. A lot of guys shoot without doing any calculations for SD or CE. Even with a left twist barrel, Applied Ballistics is saying that I would still have to add a click right to be in the center on a 0 mph wind. With a right twist it say's I would have to put 2 clicks to the left.
With my right twist barreled PRS guns, I'll just add one or two left clicks of left wind when shooting over 500 yards. A lot of the time I just leave it at 1 or 2 left.
The second reason is that a left twist barrel will torque into a right handed shooter. Some guys really swear this matters. I personally think it probably matters more on lighter rifles; Frank Green says he has noticed it when switching from Enfield to Springfield rifles. I know that during competition I am laser focused on the whole shooting thing that a lot of the little things we fret about on the internet go away. I have never during the course of a match noticed my rifle torquing one way or the other. Nor have I noticed other things like my Surgeon action not being as smooth as whatever the latest best action is. Hell, I think of shooting a tuned 700 in competition just to bruise some egos.
More than left or right twist, I choose my barrels based on whether or not it's currently in stock.
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
It may just be me. I don’t see how a prs style type of shooting would be accurate enough to see any effect from it one way or the other
muleman69
USMC -1st marine Div. RVN
This was great as after 500 I have been shooting right. Vertical good but always right after 500. Great info thanks
My PRS gun is basically a magazine fed F-Class rifle with a muzzle brake on it. If I pulled the brake off and put a wide bipod on it, I would be competitive in F-TR. I attached a screenshot from my Instagram of when I was test firing the barrel with factory Creedmoor Sports ammo (which is kinda meh to be honest.)
We shoot a lot of really small targets off of barricades or props. I can realisticly shoot 1 to 1.5 MOA off of most kinds of support.
I'm going to do a little bit of self-promotion...
The last match I shot had a stage at 1200 yards that was 4 shots on a full sized IPSC and 4 on a 2/3rds IPSC. The first time I ran the stage I actually cleaned it.
Doing the math in the calculator, I needed about .3 mils (about 1 MOA) to compensate for the effects of spin drift and Coriolis. Even in a no wind condition, if I held center, I would be 14 inches to the right...or 4 inches off the largest plate.
In the grand scheme of things that 14 inches equals about 1.5 mph of wind. It's really too easy to just program it out by clicking my turret 2 or 3 clicks left.
It isn't a predominant consideration. I never have came off the line thinking "damn spin drift got me"...but I always try to err on the side of caution and give it something.
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