How many reloads before annealing

[alinwa]

lissen to Lou, lissen to Lou, lissen to Lou...... LISSEN TO LOU!!!

There is NO ONE ON THIS BOARD in any way as qualified as him to have his opinion..... NO ONE.

period.

HE won't tell you, and I can't tell you but believe me, HIS OPINION is worth the opinion of 10,000 people who haven't put his tens of thousands of rounds down an indoor range. While competing at a national level year after year.

I ain't gonna' toot Lou's horn but If I had ALL y'all against Lou's opinion

and a thousand bucks on the line

I'd go with Lou

jus' sayin'

 

[riflewoman]

I’ve been requested to weigh in....

I’ve read the papers on the AMP website looked at their videos etc. I offer the following:

AMP agrees with my position that we are “flash” annealing the neck and shoulder area and the temperature must be just higher than 500C (1000 F) to have any effect. It just so happens that a “dull red heat in a darkened room” is about 1000F (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_heat#cite_ref-2) So, this means that unless you see a dull red glow from your case necks, you’re probably wasting your time and gas.

They indicate that case wall (weight distribution) affects their program to be used. They also have data to indicate that brass hardness can still vary substantially even amongst the precision brands. However no indication that this variance is localized or if it materially affects bullet pull. With flame annealing the only variable here is time in the flame and there isn’t the granularity in the actual heat input. Also, with flame annealing, heat distribution could potentially be an issue.

They advocate that you should anneal every shot for consistently low bullet pull. However, Brian Litz indicates that annealing everyshot didn’t make any difference. AMP also indicated that neck expansion is only one (of several, I presume) factors in bullet pull. So, perhaps, would be annealing or lack there of, but I have no data. They also said that there has to be enough cold work present to get annealing by stating that you should size new brass or wait til the second firing.

So, to sum it all up and to answer the OPs question, if my goal was to save the brass because it is rare, or has a lot of preparatory work in it, then I’d anneal every third time. If I wanted to maintain SD on bullet pull anneal every second time. If I was reforming to make a wildcat, anneal before caseforming, then after and every third time thereafter.

But $1400 buys a big bunch of Lapua brass. At 6 firings each, that amounts to 8400 shots.

 

[270WinDude]

To answer a question from earlier ... I’m using an rcbs single stage press. I’ve only used the propane torch method with my Norma brass but plan on Loading up some with my hardened then annealed Winchester and hornady sometime hopefully sooner than later. I’m sure problem could be something else but I’m almost certain it’s because it’s work hardened and don’t have the spring and I can feel it when seating bullets.

I’m curious the replies from people not annealing, if not then how many loads do you get out of your brass and are you precisely measuring seating depth after each bullet is seated?

I can absolutely tell “tension” or “bullet pull” is effected, I just might not explain it properly. If you seated the bullets yourself then saw the ones that were loose and inspected them in your hands and compared seating depth you could tell too.

 

[josh shrum]

270WinDude, here is a quote from a post I made back in June of 2017. It was concerning when to anneal in relation to sizing, but the part of that post I am including refers to my results when annealing after every firing.

I keep my brass in lots for each rifle, for example my heavy gun has 195 pieces of brass in the lot. All same lot# from Lapua, all made at the same, same neck turner setting, same amount of firings (within 1), etc. Basically as identical as possible.

Before I got an AMP I would usually see three distinct groups of seating force with this brass. Each piece of brass within a group was within 5 inch pounds of the rest, with three total 5 in/lb groups. About 5% of those 195 pieces usually fell outside of that range and were used as foulers.

I now anneal after every firing.

Clean necks > anneal > size

I am seating using the K&M Arbor Press with Force Pack

After the first time annealing with the AMP all 195 pieces were within 5 in/lb of each other.

After the second time they were all within 2 in/lb of each other.

The 2 in/lb has remained constant so far.

Since that time, the same lot of brass is still within that 2 in/lb range. This is measured on my KM Arbor Press with the force gauge.

I also anneal brass for my shooting partner. He usually has me anneal his brass every 3-4 firings, which is when he can feel differences in neck tension with his arbor press.

 

[Mozella]

............ snip..........But $1400 buys a big bunch of Lapua brass. At 6 firings each, that amounts to 8400 shots.

Or you could take that $1400 and use $200 to build a nice automatic annealing machine and another $200 to buy 300 pieces of Lapua brass and anneal them every time so that you can shoot them 28 times. You get your 8400 shots and you'll have a thousand bucks to invest in something worthwhile, like a evening out with a fancy escort service employee and a big bottle of cheap whiskey.

 

[dkhunt14]

The guy that won the 2 gun at Nationals last year had over 50 firings on his 300 WSM brass and they were annealed everytime. He is one of the hardest to beat on a regular basis. Ever since he started annealing he has won. I only shoot the brass around 15 times, because I feel after that it is starting to lose its edge and won't shoot those tiny groups. At 1000 yards the annealing really helps and I have seen where it seems to help certain cartidges more then others. Matt

 

[riflewoman]

Or you could take that $1400 and use $200 to build a nice automatic annealing machine and another $200 to buy 300 pieces of Lapua brass and anneal them every time so that you can shoot them 28 times. You get your 8400 shots and you'll have a thousand bucks to invest in something worthwhile, like a evening out with a fancy escort service employee and a big bottle of cheap whiskey.

Wouldn’t be interested in the escort, and I’d rather have a quality whisky or high end wine, thanks much.

 

[Dave Berg]

I’m curious the replies from people not annealing, if not then how many loads do you get out of your brass and are you precisely measuring seating depth after each bullet is seated?

This response is limited to the 6BR, 6 Dasher and 30BR.

I prep 100 pieces of brass divided into two lots for every new 6BR or 6 Dasher barrel. I have never annealed any of my brass. The only brass problem I have ever had is split necks when fire-forming the Dasher brass. Never a split neck in normal use and never a loose primer pocket and I'm not stingy with the powder. I retire the brass when the barrel is done shooting. With the 6BR and Dasher that's around 2,000 rounds or 20 firings on each piece. I feel bad when I trash them because the brass would probably last at least another barrels worth. With the 30BR, fifty pieces of brass, one barrel is currently sitting at around 75 firings and 50 on the other two barrels. I expect the 30BR barrels and brass to both outlive me. The 30BR brass gets worked a lot. Fired in a .330 neck chamber then sized to .324 every time. I do not use an expander, just a Harrell's bushing die. The case neck has an hourglass shape when the rounds are loaded which I believe is a plus.

I have the less than desirable Wilson micrometer seaters and several barrels so the die has to be adjusted for each lot then checked because of slop in the micrometer. After that I check the seating depth on every fifth round. It doesn't vary even by a thousandth.

After about the third firing the seating force stabilizes. I use a K&M arbor press with the force indicator so I see the reading on every case.

I'm not saying annealing is bad but I've yet to hear an argument that makes me want to start. Cost savings on brass sure isn't one......

 

[270WinDude]

Wouldn’t be interested in the escort, and I’d rather have a quality whisky or high end wine, thanks much.

I’ve had a lot of whiskey and I prefer Evan Williams green label over anything. Knob creek and Jw blue label didn’t impress me

 

[Pigdog]

Lous advice to use the AMP or not anneal at all may be true from an accuracy stand point. He didn't mention benefits of annealing to prevent split necks? I was getting split necks on lapua brass before annealing. I now anneal every 3rd-5th time with torch no more split necks. Lapua brass is too expensive to replace often so I anneal for this reason alone.

 

[riflewoman]

I’ve had a lot of whiskey and I prefer Evan Williams green label over anything. Knob creek and Jw blue label didn’t impress me

If I’m drinking whisky it will be a good single malt. If it’s wine, I’m likely to be drinking a nice mellow red or smoky white from the Santa Rita Hills near Lompoc.

 

[270WinDude]

If I’m drinking whisky it will be a good single malt. If it’s wine, I’m likely to be drinking a nice mellow red or smoky white from the Santa Rita Hills near Lompoc.

I don’t even turn case necks, I’m not that refined.

 

[JFrank]

If I’m drinking whisky it will be a good single malt. If it’s wine, I’m likely to be drinking a nice mellow red or smoky white from the Santa Rita Hills near Lompoc.

Is that sippin whiskey?
Mines mostly snakebite medicine...

 

[riflewoman]

Is that sippin whiskey?
Mines mostly snakebite medicine...

If it’s sippin’ whisky you get to savor it longer. I had a Chardonnay once from a vineyard called “Sea Smoke” (Santa Rita Hills) that would put some sippin’ whiskies to shame.

 

[F Class John]

I’m case anyone wants to see what the obscene end of annealing looks like...here’s my baby.

 

[johara1]

Where did I say that I annealing with a torch doesn’t work. I said if you’re not going through the hardness testing process a before and after you have no idea what you’re doing. Your guessing. If you like what you’re doing keep doing it it’s OK there still people out there that use the Commodore or an Atari computer.
Yes brass manufacturers do do hardness testing and they can’t even get it close to duplication that’s why it’s hardness varies from lot to lot.
There are people that are trying to achieve extreme accuracy, in doing so you have to look at every single aspect . Someone might take it partway that’s OK if there’s satisfied with their results .

I use the old way to test annealing with an old mic. and test for .0005 spring back..... And you did say if you have an amp. annealer to anneal don't if you use an other method.....I remember when all this was a big joke at the super shoot with all the things I did .... jim

 

[JFrank]

If it’s sippin’ whisky you get to savor it longer. I had a Chardonnay once from a vineyard called “Sea Smoke” (Santa Rita Hills) that would put some sippin’ whiskies to shame.

A bottle of old crow does the trick for crawling critters, you can Sippy if you want.

Just messin
J

 

[johara1]

I would guess from what I read, it is how bad do you want to win...... The extra steps you take to get rid of variables. Annealing works, some do any thing try to justify not doing something.
Just how many who don't anneal are match winners or record holders? Like Lou said you can see it at 100 yds.... if you have a gun that capable of of sub .1 accuracy is the only way to see it. One more point is no matter how hard it is seating the bullet what does it have to do with bullet grip you only have .0005 spring back. so if you pr. is .0003 larger than the shank you have .0002 grip. Old Spencers the pr. was .0005 larger than the shank and you have Zero grip ahead of the pr., no matter how much you size it or how thick the neck is I tested from .010 to no turn and all had the same grip.... jim

 

[josh shrum]

I don’t even turn case necks, I’m not that refined.

I have found that one of the biggest advantages to annealing is the extended life of my brass. In regards to not needing to neck turn as often, I find the annealer to be well worth the money. If I were competing with a no-turn chamber, not needing to neck turn, I doubt annealing would be as appealing to me.

 

[Webster]

I’ve been requested to weigh in....

I’ve read the papers on the AMP website looked at their videos etc. I offer the following:

AMP agrees with my position that we are “flash” annealing the neck and shoulder area and the temperature must be just higher than 500C (1000 F) to have any effect. It just so happens that a “dull red heat in a darkened room” is about 1000F (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_heat#cite_ref-2) So, this means that unless you see a dull red glow from your case necks, you’re probably wasting your time and gas.

They indicate that case wall (weight distribution) affects their program to be used. They also have data to indicate that brass hardness can still vary substantially even amongst the precision brands. However no indication that this variance is localized or if it materially affects bullet pull. With flame annealing the only variable here is time in the flame and there isn’t the granularity in the actual heat input. Also, with flame annealing, heat distribution could potentially be an issue.

They advocate that you should anneal every shot for consistently low bullet pull. However, Brian Litz indicates that annealing everyshot didn’t make any difference. AMP also indicated that neck expansion is only one (of several, I presume) factors in bullet pull. So, perhaps, would be annealing or lack there of, but I have no data. They also said that there has to be enough cold work present to get annealing by stating that you should size new brass or wait til the second firing.

So, to sum it all up and to answer the OPs question, if my goal was to save the brass because it is rare, or has a lot of preparatory work in it, then I’d anneal every third time. If I wanted to maintain SD on bullet pull anneal every second time. If I was reforming to make a wildcat, anneal before caseforming, then after and every third time thereafter.

But $1400 buys a big bunch of Lapua brass. At 6 firings each, that amounts to 8400 shots.

Even if you are not annealing at 750-900F? You are stress relieving without a hardness change. Seems good enough for my use. I am probably in the 800-900F region with my torch. A friend of mine was a PHD consultant to the copper industry. He told me 1050F was red. There must be some interpretation of what red is and I am sure he didn't have exact data.