Splits on shoulder..?

[Rsadams]

I inherited some ammo , mixed head stamped LC my dad bought in 90/91... It came in a cardboard box marked .223 he probably got at a gun show when he was buying stuff right before the Clinton ban...I shot some through my AR today and according to my crono it was right at normal LC 5.56 speeds... No annealing on necks or primer crimps , some have nato crosses ( the 91 years ) some older years don't...

Although they shot fine and the brass looked ok I had one split the shoulder , not the neck... I plan on sitting down and do some inspection and measurements tonight but I am thinking this stuff might be reloads...

Any idea what coused the split shoulder..? Gun its self is fine , never had this happen before... Not in this gun , once in a bolt action .308 with old Remington ammo... There's about 800 or 900 left out of the thousand round box and I hate to throw it away... I have no experience with lake city before 2013.... Did they always anneal necks way back in the late 80s early 90s..?

EDIT , checked some with a Hornady headspace comparator and they seem to be .003 more headspace than some new IMI .223 I had laying on the reloading bench... Keep in mind I have no plans to reload this brass....
Thanks in advance...
Shawn...

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Got a pic?
Probably gas port timing off with your powder choice allowing them to stretch that .003 then splitting in the work hardened shoulder

 

[jepp2]

No annealing on necks or primer crimps

This is telling you it is reloads. Shoulder splits happen, I wouldn't worry about it. I would worry about shooting someone else's reloads. Especially since you don't know who loaded them. I would suggest you pull them down and recover bullets and brass. Annealing is probably in order.

I have a rule. I don't shoot anyone else's reloads, and nobody shoots my reloads.

 

[K22]

This is telling you it is reloads. Shoulder splits happen, I wouldn't worry about it. I would worry about shooting someone else's reloads. Especially since you don't know who loaded them. I would suggest you pull them down and recover bullets and brass. Annealing is probably in order.

I have a rule. I don't shoot anyone else's reloads, and nobody shoots my reloads.

Amen - a very wise rule!

 

[Rsadams]

When I saw them I was worrying about it.... Before I ever fired one...
Does anybody know if before 1992 LC annealed and crimped primers..?
I have thousands more brass and don't need any of the components... Will just save them for SHTF or toss them...

 

[Rsadams]

Got a pic?
Probably gas port timing off with your powder choice allowing them to stretch that .003 then splitting in the work hardened shoulder

No sir , please see op , there that much out of the box... These are not mine...they came in a box 800+ probably a thousand round box that have been stored properly... But they are questionable since they are mixed brass LC from right before the Clinton ban... Now if I was shooting them in a POS AR-15 platform I wouldn't care but this is in my Sig with all the high dollar upgrades , pretty much the best of what I wanted I am little scared...lol... My LC experience is limited to 2011 I guess and I don't know how they made them before that.. Crono says there 5.56 and they shot fine but , if there questionable they will get left for zombie attack...

I am sure someone has shot 1983+ LC , were they annealed and did they have crimped primers back then..? If they did , then there gun show reloads...Please don't be afraid to chime in , I am not mean or think any questions are dumb , that's how we learn...That's what this board with great people are all about... There's been other boards I have left because that's not always the case and there's people that are banned from here that are the reason I have lost left other ones....

I need to figure out how to post a picture , because when you see the necks on these things which was the tip off to an experience reloader , I think you will all see.. there's definitely something off...

 

[#40Fan]

I have an POS AR with a bump stock and binary trigger that would eat them up if you want to give them away.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

No sir , please see op , there that much out of the box... These are not mine...they came in a box 800+ probably a thousand round box that have been stored properly... But they are questionable since they are mixed brass LC from right before the Clinton ban... Now if I was shooting them in a POS AR-15 platform I wouldn't care but this is in my Sig with all the high dollar upgrades , pretty much the best of what I wanted I am little scared...lol... My LC experience is limited to 2011 I guess and I don't know how they made them before that.. Crono says there 5.56 and they shot fine but , if there questionable they will get left for zombie attack...

I am sure someone has shot 1983+ LC , were they annealed and did they have crimped primers back then..? If they did , then there gun show reloads...Please don't be afraid to chime in , I am not mean or think any questions are dumb , that's how we learn...That's what this board with great people are all about... There's been other boards I have left because that's not always the case and there's people that are banned from here that are the reason I have lost left other ones....

I need to figure out how to post a picture , because when you see the necks on these things which was the tip off to an experience reloader , I think you will all see.. there's definitely something off...

I misunderstood i thought you said they split after you shot them in an ar. It doesnt matter how much it costs the expensive ones with the non mil spec gas systems even compound the problem. If your powder was maybe a little faster or a heavier bullet than the gas system was tuned for then thats what im saying happened. If the bolt unlocks before the pressure bleeds off youll get stretching. Youd probably never see this in a bolt action or if they were annealed properly before sizing with the load your rifle was tuned to shoot.

 

[Rsadams]

I misunderstood i thought you said they split after you shot them in an ar. It doesnt matter how much it costs the expensive ones with the non mil spec gas systems even compound the problem. If your powder was maybe a little faster or a heavier bullet than the gas system was tuned for then thats what im saying happened. If the bolt unlocks before the pressure bleeds off youll get stretching. Youd probably never see this in a bolt action or if they were annealed properly before sizing with the load your rifle was tuned to shoot.

Dusty I didn't load these , one out of ten split the shoulder not the neck , these have .003 more than a factory .223 brass... Also thanks for your reply...

These came out of my dad's gun safe , he has had them since around say 1990 , during the wild wild west of let's buy everything and he had money , he died a few months ago and I just took his ammo home , if not it was just going in the dumpster... Almost like when a newbe sets up dies per the instructions.... The crono said the numbers were good but that's not saying much..lol ...

The gas system in my carbine length gun is milspec and throws anything at the 4:00 , 4:30 position and is gassed correct unless its just junk ammo , so it's not the gun , it's not set up as a target gun but as a defense gun although it's extremely accurate , it will shoot 1 moa with a blind old man behind it with iron sight , I have spent a ton of time making sure it's reliable... I even pulled a couple rounds while watching and the ejection was correct.. it has everything to do with the ammo... I get asked on a regular basis to load for others and refuse and won't shoot others reloads.. I think these maybe wild west gun show reloads of the era...I I plan on pulling a few and see what's inside...

Once again thanks for the reply and continue to toss in ideas....

 

[msinc]

What do you mean when you say "these have .003" more than factory 223" ?? I have seen a lot of shoulders split, especially with LC brass. Usually it is either they have hardened and need to be annealed, they have excess headspace, or for reasons other than headspace {such as what Dusty has offered} they have stretched and split. If I get a batch of reloads or just "unknown" ammo in general I always measure headspace length, then strip a few down and see what kind of charge they have weight wise. If while stripping them I think the necks have hardened up then I strip them all and anneal and reload my way. All this is contingent on cost of course. Depending on the bullets, I probably wouldn't do this with 223 ammo because I have about 10,000 cases cleaned, annealed, sized and trimmed ready to load. Now if it was say 100 rounds of 243 or 7mm-08 with good brass I probably would spend a little time.
I know of no U.S. military ammo from about WWI up until today that was not annealed. That said, annealing has a "sell by" date and it expires as far as effectiveness goes. Back in 90-91 I had a metric schitt ton of Lake City 57 and 58 308 brass that was so hard some of the necks were split just because they had a bullet in them. Once annealed, what wasn't split already was some of the best brass I ever had.
M1 Garands are noted for stretching brass, usually by about .008". You will get a lot of split shoulders with that rifle even if the cases are not hardened up.

 

[Rsadams]

So in you guys opinion will brass harden just with age.? When measured with a Hornady headspace comparator they are .003 shorter than a imi case I had laying on my bench , well 3 or 4 anyway.... Just maybe old brass I need to chunk another dozen or so down range and see what happens , the speeds were all close and no pressure signs... So really no big deal that way... Just thinking they may be reloads someone made and we're selling at some gun show.... The crono said they were close to each other... Not scary . But I don't think they are factory....maybe just good SHTF ammo...

 

[Uncle Ed]

If the shoulder location is .003 shorter than factory loaded ammunition my guess is the cases were resized with a small base die.

Note, a small base die will reduce the case diameter by .002 to .003 more than a standard die. And the small base die will also push the shoulder back .002 to .003 more than a standard die.

And Lake City did crimp and anneal their cases, meaning your cases were reloads that were tumbled and that removed the annealed coloration.

I buy bulk once fired processed Lake City 7.62 and 5.56 brass, its cheap and I would toss the cases you have and start fresh.

Look at the cases pictured at the link below, you will see no indication of annealing.

.223/5.56 - Cleaned, Deprimed & Swaged - LC Only - 200 Pieces $22.00 free shipping
https://www.brassbombers.com/223-556-Cleaned-Deprimed-Swaged-LC-Only-200-Pieces-5LC-SSP20.htm

 

[msinc]

.....Note, a small base die will reduce the case diameter by .002 to .003 more than a standard die. And the small base die will also push the shoulder back .002 to .003 more than a standard die........

Where are you getting this information??? The small base dies I have used {RCBS} as well as any others that I know of reduce the base diameter by .001" and they are not made to reduce the headspace length by anything. Like any full length resize die you can set them up to reduce headspace length, but you probably wont get .003" shorter than a "standard" die out of them. Unless of course you shorten the shell holder or cut off the bottom of the die.

There are those that say brass cases do not harden with age and that it can only harden by being worked. The guys that made this claim also claimed to be "metallurgist". There was a long thread on here a few years back about this. But I have seen way too many old cases that did nothing but sit around and they certainly had very hard necks. Air harden, work harden or time harden....the end result was the same, either the necks split just from sitting with a bullet in them or I could hear and feel a noticeable "chirp" when sizing over the neck expander. Proper annealing put the cases back in service. The other thing to really watch out for with older brass cases is corrosive primers. I think the magic year was 1944. Everything from then on was non-corrosive.

 

[jepp2]

Does anybody know if before 1992 LC annealed and crimped primers..?

Yes they did. I have LC cases back to the early 70's and all had crimped primers and annealed case necks.

The only LC without crimps is when you buy new unprimed LC brass.

 

[243winxb]

Black Hill's Factory Remanufactured 223 ammo i had in the 80s, was loaded in mixed headstamp LC brass. It run fine in my M16A1 carbine.

The LC brass is designed for the orginal firing, 1 time. It doesnt get the extra annealing commercial brass does.

The Gov sells LC fired brass as scrap. In testing, some brass has been chemically treated to age it. This is to test storage life.

Your 223 ammo will not hurt the chamber from a split in the shoulder area. I had a few, no damage. Its most likely a brass issue, not rifle related. If more then 10% are split , before or after firing, i would scrap it. The biggest problem is, who reloaded it?

I have seen FUJI 30-06 new ammo split in the shoulder. A brass problem.

 

[Rsadams]

Black Hill's Factory Remanufactured 223 ammo i had in the 80s, was loaded in mixed headstamp LC brass. It run fine in my M16A1 carbine.

The LC brass is designed for the orginal firing, 1 time. It doesnt get the extra annealing commercial brass does.

The Gov sells LC fired brass as scrap. In testing, some brass has been chemically treated to age it. This is to test storage life.

Your 223 ammo will not hurt the chamber from a split in the shoulder area. I had a few, no damage. Its most likely a brass issue, not rifle related. If more then 10% are split , before or after firing, i would scrap it. The biggest problem is, who reloaded it?

I have seen FUJI 30-06 new ammo split in the shoulder. A brass problem.

Ya that's what scares me also , who loaded it..? It was in a heavy cardboard box that was stapled shut and in red letters stamped .223.... There's also a case in the wooden crate if the old Norinco yellow box 7.62x39 he had for his AKs and SKSs I brought home those also... Nice to see a nice Norinco AK and sks with only 30 rounds through them maybe in 2018... Plus a ton of the old grey box 9mm Norinco... Used to shoot alot of it before Clinton banned it all....

 

[Bbear]

jepp had the right answer. I haven't shot someone else's reloads ever and don't plan on starting. After watching a friend of mine load necked & trimmed 30-06 mil brass down to 25-06, then filling a bowl with IMR 4350 and IMR 4831 then scooping the mix into each case up to the mouth. Then seating a bullet. Watching him shoot those loads and seeing about 5' of flame coming out swore me off of trusting anyone else's reloads.
Split shoulders happen. If I'm reading the op correctly, this is all loaded ammo. Odds are good it's never been annealed but may be reloads instead of military ball ammo. If there isn't a primer crimp, I'd pull them, dump the powder in the yard, CAREFULLY punch out the primers and anneal them before reloading them myself. Or, if you don't feel they will harm your firearm, shoot them yourself. Your choice.

 

[Rsadams]

jepp had the right answer. I haven't shot someone else's reloads ever and don't plan on starting. After watching a friend of mine load necked & trimmed 30-06 mil brass down to 25-06, then filling a bowl with IMR 4350 and IMR 4831 then scooping the mix into each case up to the mouth. Then seating a bullet. Watching him shoot those loads and seeing about 5' of flame coming out swore me off of trusting anyone else's reloads.
Split shoulders happen. If I'm reading the op correctly, this is all loaded ammo. Odds are good it's never been annealed but may be reloads instead of military ball ammo. If there isn't a primer crimp, I'd pull them, dump the powder in the yard, CAREFULLY punch out the primers and anneal them before reloading them myself. Or, if you don't feel they will harm your firearm, shoot them yourself. Your choice.

Yup it was a bulk box of a thousand rounds my dad got somewhere back in or around 1991 and 1991 is the latest headstamp in the group I have seen.... I have no plans to reload any of them I have plenty of once fired Lake City brass stored away... I shot ten rounds and five over my crono and they are definitely flying at 5.56 speeds , no pressure signs etc... Just one had split a shoulder out of the group , not bad but it still split.... I will pull some of them and see what's inside I guess... It's either save them for SHTF or throw them out.... I have plenty of reloading components and factory ammo....

 

[Rsadams]

If I pull the fmj bullets I guess I could save them for the future instead of just throwing them all away , there's probably 800 left....? I have never loaded pulled bullets..

 

[pirate ammo]

If I pull the fmj bullets I guess I could save them for the future instead of just throwing them all away , there's probably 800 left....? I have never loaded pulled bullets..

if you decide to pull them,bring some over I'll help you with then,,give me something to do,,