Carbon Prevention

[Clucknmoan]

Spent a good portion of the weekend scrubbing the heck out of barrels after finding carbon in one. Of course I just had to check the rest.

Obviously there is something lacking in my cleaning regimen if there was carbon in 3 of my barrels. What is everyone finding as the best prevention from getting this to start? Scrubbing with JB or Kroil each cleaning or a solvent like C4 or Lucas?

 

[Rsadams]

Don't let it build up to start with is the best prevention.... Everyone has their favorite cleaning solution , I use gunslick foaming bore cleaner.... Some like it , some don't , I do because I clean alot of pistols also and it's just to easy... Plus I clean it if I shoot it , once again some do and some don't... I have been doing it that way for 40 years , no problems yet... I foam a barrel and let it sit while I clean the rest of the gun , run a brush down it a couple times and patch out... If it's still not good I foam it again and repeat , then oil the bore...

 

[klmshooterk]

I like to let folks know that my OMS/CLP mixture is not a magic solution that before your eyes, magically melts away years of carbon build-up. It is though a very simple method that tackles one of the most tedious parts of the weapon to clean (Not just the bolt, but the carrier and associated parts.). And, if used on a regular basis, it will keep the carbon build-up in check.

I’ve been using this method myself for a few years now with very good results, and have received numerous responses on several other boards from those who have tried it and were very pleased with the results they obtained.

If you have any questions regarding the process or the mixture, please don’t hesitate to ask.

 

[Texas10]

I shoot both factory and custom barrels and have used the foaming bore cleaner for awhile now. It's quick and good at removing copper, but leaves powder residue and carbon behind at least in the factory barrels.

Following a thread on this site, I made a change and bought the VFG cleaning pellets from Brownells, both in Plain (felt) and Super Intensive (abrasive impregnated fiber) for each caliber I shoot.

I also made a batch of Ed's Red to try out, and I must say I'm impressed with it.

Yesterday I tried this combination, along with some bore polish and discovered that my usual cleaning routine was far from adequate, at least for my Factory barrels. I started with a bore mop and Ed's red, letting it sit for 30 minutes and patching out. A lot of carbon and powder fouling came out, but there was a lot left.

Then two rounds of Super Intensive pellets combined with KG-2 Bore Polish, stroking the full length of the barrel 100 to 150 times, maybe more, followed by at least 50 dry patches, none of which emerged clean. My inspection camera reveals a lot of black residue still left in the bore.

So today, I'll be back at it. Ed's Red, intensive pellets and KG-2 until only the bare metal is visible in my camera. Again, this is for a Factory (Savage) barrel with only about 500 rounds down the barrel.

I learn something new everyday on this site. It's a great place for inquiring minds.

 

[msinc]

Spent a good portion of the weekend scrubbing the heck out of barrels after finding carbon in one. Of course I just had to check the rest.

Obviously there is something lacking in my cleaning regimen if there was carbon in 3 of my barrels. What is everyone finding as the best prevention from getting this to start? Scrubbing with JB or Kroil each cleaning or a solvent like C4 or Lucas?

There is probably nothing "lacking" in your cleaning regimen at all. There is probably nothing lacking in your shooting regimen either. You have to shoot 'em to get 'em dirty....that said, the only "prevention" I am aware of that actually works is to leave your guns in the gun safe or rack and don't shoot them.
Carbon gets there from shooting, period, and as you know it doesn't just happen to materialize in the bore because the gun exists. All that said, the other question you should be asking the shooters with the "magic formula" to easily wipe clean every molecule from a bore is "what kind of borescope do you have???"
Running cleaning stuff and brushes down a bore until the patches come out clean looking would seem to be the end of it, and admittedly sometimes it is. But then again, sometimes it very definitely is not. Holding your eye up to the bore while looking at some light source at the other end will tell you if a bullet could pass thru, but nothing more.
I use Shooter's Choice MC-7 for a solvent and JB Bore Cleaner for the tough stuff. I had one nephew that was a real live, honest to god Marine sniper. {everyone either knows a Marine sniper, has a kid that is, or was one themselves...} When he was at Quantico he got to be pretty good friends with the guys that work on the sniper rifles. Just like scope makers, bore cleaner companies would send them boxes of free bore cleaners hoping the Marines would buy their product. There was a 9 month time when he must have brought me 25 or 30 different brands of bore cleaner. I tried them all and most of them did absolutely zero. By the way...I have a Hawkeye borescope.

Edit: many guys will tell you that you shouldn't necessarily clean until accuracy starts to drop, and there is something to be said for that. Also, caution on rubbing too much abrasive type cleaners in the bore, they generate their own dirt...if you keep on rubbing it will keep on turning out black stuff.

 

[JBT47]

Bore Tech C4 every cleaning used with bronze brush. Iosso per Iosso’s instructions every 150 rounds.

 

[Prose]

Good post from @msinc above.

I was cleaning shotgun chokes yesterday and got a chance to see crud removal up close. Pretty darn impressed with foaming bore cleaner as it did the job that a couple different CLPs and solvents could not.

I've also just started to use abrasives and it makes it so easy. Worst barrel in the world will clean right up when you throw some grit at it.

 

[nmkid]

Bore Tech C4 every cleaning used with bronze brush. Iosso per Iosso’s instructions every 150 rounds.

Maybe I should try this Bore Tech C4 stuff. I see it mentioned in many shooting forums.

 

[270WinDude]

Edit: many guys will tell you that you shouldn't necessarily clean until accuracy starts to drop, and there is something to be said for that. Also, caution on rubbing too much abrasive type cleaners in the bore, they generate their own dirt...if you keep on rubbing it will keep on turning out black stuff.

I guess I'm testing this theory with my barrel. Unless some one straight up tells me what I'm doing is wrong, I've only been running Hoppes9 down after a trip to the range (about 30 rounds) and doing that liberally 5-15 times then dry patching it until it's shiny clean looking. I do have a "nylon" bristle brush that is a bit in between a plain patch and a brass(bronze or copper?) brush. I still have near neon glowing orange streaks down my rifling. My plan is compare notes as I go to see if accuracy improves or falls off. I only run some remoil or hoppes oil down barrel once a blue moon or less. I find that it depends on the powder I'm using on how dirty the barrel looks so I just keep that in mind for load development. I'm not a competitor so can get away with a lot more.

 

[Clucknmoan]

I guess I'm testing this theory with my barrel. Unless some one straight up tells me what I'm doing is wrong, I've only been running Hoppes9 down after a trip to the range (about 30 rounds) and doing that liberally 5-15 times then dry patching it until it's shiny clean looking. I do have a "nylon" bristle brush that is a bit in between a plain patch and a brass(bronze or copper?) brush. I still have near neon glowing orange streaks down my rifling. My plan is compare notes as I go to see if accuracy improves or falls off. I only run some remoil or hoppes oil down barrel once a blue moon or less. I find that it depends on the powder I'm using on how dirty the barrel looks so I just keep that in mind for load development. I'm not a competitor so can get away with a lot more.

Not a competitive shooter either. Cant see the carbon from the bore at all with the naked eye. I couldn’t anyway. On the muzzle end I could see what looked to be kind of a gray streaking substance between the rifling, looked nothing like copper fouling.

I started getting high pressure and high velocity for absolutely no apparent reason. Definitely wasn’t temperature and I triple checked scales, brass prep, bullet demension and primers. Nothing made sense. It was giving me a full 100 FPS of velocity over what it should have been. The only way I could get these results from QuickLoad was to up the Burn rate 10% and then up the starting pressure up where it should be at jam.

On the bore scope first 5 inches of the barrel looked like someone had been doing burn outs in it. That or the morning after a night of Mexican food and to much tequila. I can assure you that I will be all over this from now on. It’s a complete pain in the ass to get it out once it’s in there. The only way to deal with this is to not let it happen.

 

[KMart]

I like to let folks know that my OMS/CLP mixture

If you have any questions regarding the process or the mixture, please don’t hesitate to ask.

OK. I give up. What is the OMS part. I know what clp is.

 

[bigstick6017555]

I have tried all the different solvent hypes over the years, for me I have found that the bore brush is what makes a difference. A worn out bore brush does nothing. When i buy bronze bore brushes i always buy a brush a couple of calibers larger for the bore i am cleaning. Using a bore guide i only brush one way in the bore, as it wears down and the bristles remain intact it can be used in a smaller bore till bristles begin to come loose. i have found Tipton brushes to be of good quality and last a fair amount of time. I buy brushes by the dozens, I consider them as an expendable item and needed. I have also found in using an oversized bore brush that, just as it enters the throat I stop and rotate it a good number of turns by hand with a short rod. This seems to get the carbon out of that step up at the end of the chamber and beginning of the throat. This has cut my cleaning time down by more than half, more than any type of solvent i have used.

 

[Rsadams]

As someone who has or had a family owned automotive machine shop for 30 years and dealt with thick , hard , cooked on carbon , I can flat tell you , if you let carbon build up it's VERY hard to remove... When we used to run parts in the automatic washer with acid in it for hours at 250-300 degrees it still wouldn't remove all of it in a neglected engine... The only way to get some of it off was with a wire wheel..

You are not going to get even close to what these parts went through and still didn't come clean.... It is a different situation of course but that's why I say the best defense to caked on hard carbon is to not let it build up in the first place... After tearing down thousands of these filthy beasts and trying a bunch of magic products , scraping is the only way sometimes , I assure you it would ruin a barrel especially if you are scared of jb bore paste or bronze brushes doing damage to hard steel...

The other thing that worked on small amounts of hard carbon and i promise you will destroy or do more damage than it's worth if you're not super careful is the CHEAPEST carburetor cleaner available , the expensive name brand didn't work as well... You will still have to soak it and end up working it with a brush in a barrel... Please don't spray this stuff in or on your gun if you like it , you WILL regret it... Want to find out what works on hard carbon , go by your local automotive machine shop and get an old piston with a bunch of hard , thick , cooked on carbon and experiment... Another thing that will soften hard carbon and I do it to AR_15 BCG is soaking it in oil for awhile...

 

[normmatzen]

This may sound crazy, but I have a Swiss K-31 and bought the cleaning kit for it (Swiss Army Issue) but I admit I have never tried this;

The kit has two tins of "Fett" which translates to grease. There is also a bore snake. The official Swiss Army instructions say to clean with a greased up snake brush. Then, leave a coating of grease in the bore. clean out bore prior to shooting.

As I said, I have never tried it, but when I got this rifle, the stock was full of dings and looked used as was some bluing light. BUT, the bore was prestine! I think storage with grease in the bore is like soaking in penetrating oil. I have heard from other K-31 owners what a good job the grease and bore snake do.. I have just been scared to try it in my long range bench rest rifles!

 

[nmkid]

Want to find out what works on hard carbon , go by your local automotive machine shop and get an old piston with a bunch of hard , thick , cooked on carbon and experiment...

Simple, but, great idea.

 

[msinc]

.......I still have near neon glowing orange streaks down my rifling......

Then the stuff you are using is doing nothing to remove the copper, Hoppe's #9 smells good and guys like to joke about how "real men" use it for aftershave...but as a bore cleaner it is not all that effective. They do make another product called Hoppe's #9 Benchrest and it is a dedicated copper remover, but as copper removers go it is not all that either.

.....On the muzzle end I could see what looked to be kind of a gray streaking substance between the rifling, looked nothing like copper fouling........On the bore scope first 5 inches of the barrel looked like someone had been doing burn outs in it. That or the morning after a night of Mexican food and to much tequila........

The gray stuff you are seeing sounds like powder fouling to me. I have seen what sounds like the exact same thing in some of my rifles, but my powder solvent and a good tight fitting {a caliber up as was previously suggested} bronze brush will take it right out. The other stuff in the "first 5 inches" could be just some powder fouling too, but it could also be something else. I have to wonder about these new anti copper fouling powders....they have to contain some sort of substance that sticks to and coats the bore that copper cant stick to. Now if it coats the bore and will stand up to bullets and hot gases passing over it at 3000 fps {plus or minus} I have to wonder, first, what does it look like in the bore?? and just how tough it is to remove????

 

[270WinDude]

Then the stuff you are using is doing nothing to remove the copper, Hoppe's #9 smells good and guys like to joke about how "real men" use it for aftershave...but as a bore cleaner it is not all that effective. They do make another product called Hoppe's #9 Benchrest and it is a dedicated copper remover, but as copper removers go it is not all that either.

Thanks for the info. I'll probably be changing then.I don't think it's doing anything on the copper. Some powders (primarily imr4350) sometimes make my barrel look as if there is lint garbage down the barrel, it does good cleaning that but that's about it. I chose h9 because "gunblue" on youtube had mentioned people use it and that was as far as my research went. That is freaking hilarious about "real men" using it as aftershave! I will certainly be appropriating that joke.

 

[msinc]

Thanks for the info. I'll probably be changing then.I don't think it's doing anything on the copper. Some powders (primarily imr4350) sometimes make my barrel look as if there is lint garbage down the barrel, it does good cleaning that but that's about it. I chose h9 because "gunblue" on youtube had mentioned people use it and that was as far as my research went. That is freaking hilarious about "real men" using it as aftershave! I will certainly be appropriating that joke.

One thing to try with any of the solvents you use is this...try slopping the bore up real good with a bronze brush and a lot of the solvent. Let it soak and sit for several hours. I use Shooters Choice and sometimes I even let it sit overnight if I am not in a hurry and don't feel like a session with JB Bore Cleaner. Some people advocate plugging the bore and pouring it full of the solvent. There might be some solvents you have to do this with, but Shooters Choice is not one of them. You certainly can, but I find it unnecessary. Just as long as it's good and sloppy wet you can leave it until later. I get blue patches out until the copper is gone. It doesn't take much copper in the bore to turn a patch blue either. Caution on letting the wrong kind of solvent soak for extended periods...do this with Sweets 7.62 and you wont have any rifling left!!!! But, this is one of the things I like about Shooters Choice MC-7....you cannot hurt a bore with it, no matter how long you leave it soak.

..........I have found that the bore brush is what makes a difference. A worn out bore brush does nothing. When i buy bronze bore brushes i always buy a brush a couple of calibers larger for the bore i am cleaning........This has cut my cleaning time down by more than half, more than any type of solvent i have used.

I find that a good tight fitting bore brush can make a difference as far as powder fouling and carbon are concerned, but I have not found it to do much of anything for copper fouling. Copper fouling is best removed chemically and with time, such as with copper fouling specific cleaners soaking. Next best for copper, and certainly fastest, is with JB Bore Cleaner and the like.

 

[alinwa]

I clean with the eye-burning stinky stuff (LUVVIT!) Montana Extreme Copper Killer using only solvent, no brushes and CLEAN WARM!

I truly think that cleaning right as you shoot makes all the difference. I try never let the fouling get hard.

I have a Hawkeye

 

[rardoin]

Bore Tech C4 every cleaning used with bronze brush. Iosso per Iosso’s instructions every 150 rounds.

^^^^^

This works for me.