I was on Hodgdon's website today looking at load data for a 221 fireball, and noticed the max loads for a handgun with a 10 3/4" bbl was a full 2 grs less than the data posted for a rifle with a 24" bbl. Same powder used and the bullets were in the same weight range, but not the same bullet. What I'm seeing isn't because of different bearing surfaces, but why are the pistol charges so lite?
Max loads handgun vs rifle
- Thread starter grovey
- Start date
A older Contender break open single shot pistol is not as strong as a bolt action. A Contender pistol loaded too "HOT" will stretch the frame. The second generation Contenders were beefed up and can take more of a pounding.
Bottom line, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link and loading manuals give loading data for the oldest or weakest firearms still used today.
Example, why can't a new 30-06 Remington 700 be loaded to the same pressures as a .270 Winchester.
You may be right, I hadn't considered a contender. So your saying the early contenders are kinda weak then? I mean the fireball is puppy compared to most centerfires. I should of mentioned... I took it that the listed data was for an xp100 by the listed 10 3/4" bbl length. That's what I'm loading for too.
Last edited:
dellet
Gold $$ Contributor
The Hodgdon site is lacking. Most likely due to differences in barrels and possibly even powder lots as normal.
The big problem is a lack of pressure readings. In pistol the only powder that has pressure is IMR 4198, and that powder is not used in the rifle data. So actual comparisons aren’t possible.
The max pressures are basically the same 51,000 cup, depending on powder choice, but looking at max loads in the rifle section, none were at max pressure of 52,000
The big problem is a lack of pressure readings. In pistol the only powder that has pressure is IMR 4198, and that powder is not used in the rifle data. So actual comparisons aren’t possible.
The max pressures are basically the same 51,000 cup, depending on powder choice, but looking at max loads in the rifle section, none were at max pressure of 52,000
The Sierra manual has load data for the .221 Fireball using the XP100 pistol.
The Hodgdon's manual does not list the firearm used for testing. So you do not know if a pressure test barrel was used of if the strain gauge was glued to the barrel. Or if one of the two pages could be a typing error.
This is why the reloading manuals tell you to make workup loads starting at the suggested starting loads and work up. The loading data in the manuals is ball park information. And the reloading components and your firearm can produce different results.
Example the bottom Lapua case has 28.0 grains of H2O case capacity and the top Lake City case has a capacity of 30.6
And the same charge of powder in the Lapua case will be 6,000 psi higher in chamber pressure than the Lake City case.
The Hodgdon's manual does not list the firearm used for testing. So you do not know if a pressure test barrel was used of if the strain gauge was glued to the barrel. Or if one of the two pages could be a typing error.
This is why the reloading manuals tell you to make workup loads starting at the suggested starting loads and work up. The loading data in the manuals is ball park information. And the reloading components and your firearm can produce different results.
Example the bottom Lapua case has 28.0 grains of H2O case capacity and the top Lake City case has a capacity of 30.6
And the same charge of powder in the Lapua case will be 6,000 psi higher in chamber pressure than the Lake City case.
I load for the rifle as well, so I'm very familiar with these exact components. I had already started to put my first development loads together. They were a full 2 grs less than my hot rifle load and I was loading upwards with H4198. I took a break and decided to check out Hodgdon's site for pistol data and saw according to them.... even my starting loads were 1/2 gr over their posted max. I'll break down the 12 or so I have loaded to be safe, but it still seems odd to me.
dellet
Gold $$ Contributor
You need to factor everything in. A different bullet of the same weight can be as much as .100” longer. It’s really not the length of the bearing surface that will make a significant pressure difference as the amount of bullet in the case. JBM has a good online source of bullet lengths. Knowing bullet length will help you determine seated depth and load density ratios. In a case that small, .050” more bullet in the case with a max load and a fast powder, could get interesting
The difference between a copper bullet and a jacketed bullet will also change pressure.
For what it’s worth, if you look at Hornady data, they tend to load the pistol hotter than the rifle. XP 100 vs 700 Rem. Compare as much data as you can and try to find a recipe with your exact bullet, until you get familiar with the round.
The difference between a copper bullet and a jacketed bullet will also change pressure.
For what it’s worth, if you look at Hornady data, they tend to load the pistol hotter than the rifle. XP 100 vs 700 Rem. Compare as much data as you can and try to find a recipe with your exact bullet, until you get familiar with the round.
JSH
Gold $$ Contributor
A lot of times it has nothing to do with pressure. And there is no second generation Contender, there is the Contender,Encore and G2. There is no such thing as a G1.
Shorter barrels with some powders, running over the chrono, will show no velocity or accuracy gain. So why go over the two grains for nothing. Early data from the heyday of IHMSA more times than not showed to loads, one for 10" and another for 14" barrels. XP data was kept seperate.
I mention this after having played with a fair number of rifle calibers and bottle neck wildcats in single shot pistols.
I would say a call to powder or bullet manufactures would give an answer, but most of the guys that developed those loads are retired or passed on, there are a few still around.
Shorter barrels with some powders, running over the chrono, will show no velocity or accuracy gain. So why go over the two grains for nothing. Early data from the heyday of IHMSA more times than not showed to loads, one for 10" and another for 14" barrels. XP data was kept seperate.
I mention this after having played with a fair number of rifle calibers and bottle neck wildcats in single shot pistols.
I would say a call to powder or bullet manufactures would give an answer, but most of the guys that developed those loads are retired or passed on, there are a few still around.
No. The contenders were not at all weak. I fired many hot rounds of 30GNR, 378GNR, and 450GNR through my Contenders without a hiccup. There is a Contender frame, and an Encore frame. The original Contender frame was made in numerous variations until the improved version was introduced, called the G2, which is the Contender frame. T/C G2 CONTENDER. "The second-generation G2 is even more user-friendly in the field than Thompson/Centers original Contender". Kinda like the original RCBS Rockchucker. Though there is a Rockchucker ll, the original version is not called a Rockchucker l.
Last edited:
Just a short follow up here for anyone who searches for the same answer in the future. Be safe, START LOW and work up as always. But in this XP1OO I safely ran it up to 18.0 grs of H4198 behind a 50gr zmax thus far. Hornadys book max was 16.5 for a handgun, and that may or may not have been set for contender users??? I've safely loaded 19.0 grs in two separate bolt action rifles.
Could NOT imagine PROOF READING a loading manual.
Based on a few errors that have made it to print, neither could the actual editors of said manual!
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.