Neck turning question

[alinwa]

Easier to fireform with just pistol powder (e.g. Bullseye) and pistol primer, while skipping the wad/filler/plug etc. Just use about 50% more powder than with the filler, and point the rifle straight up. I don't like fiddling with the wad and filler, plus it usually leaves a residue in the case.
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Brian, why the pistol primer??

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Easier to fireform with just pistol powder (e.g. Bullseye) and pistol primer, while skipping the wad/filler/plug etc. Just use about 50% more powder than with the filler, and point the rifle straight up. I don't like fiddling with the wad and filler, plus it usually leaves a residue in the case.
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I agree. In smaller cases, I've found I can just completely fill them with Unique (or another really fast powder) and put a little tissue in the neck to hold it in. Gives sharper shoulders and no mess in the chamber/bore. I'm very hesitant to try the same method in large magnum cases though. I don't like to post about forming this way because I cannot say for sure that completely filling the case is a safe method of fire-forming without a bullet. But it has worked for me in the couple of small cases I tried. Doubt I'll ever try it in large cases.

Not sure about the pistol primer...Thinner cup. Although pressures while forming without a bullet are nowhere near what they are with a bullet traveling down the bore so I'm sure it would be fine. But I have more than enough rifle primers to go around

 

[Brians356]

Brian, why the pistol primer??

That's what Ken Howell recommended in his chapter on fireforming. Since he didn't explain why, I can only guess. And he was using filler, so that could factor in.

Ledd Slinger, I'm leery of filling the case with pistol powder, seems grossly overmuch. With about 20% filled with Bullseye, my 250 Ackleys are starched, shoulders pointed, from 22-250 cases. I dispense with any kind of neck plug, leaving the case mouth wide open. Just don't overturn the case box (or squeeze a piece of foam rubber between the cases and the box lid for transport) or fumble a case while feeding it into the action (or bring the powder jar and a Lee dipper along just in case.) I rest the gun on the butt, pointing skyward, while loading the case.
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[Ledd Slinger]

My reasoning for trying it with the case completely full (filled to bottom of neck)was that there isn't as much back pressure without a bullet. I first tried it in a 243 LBC Turbo 40 with nothing on the neck and it worked ok (pointed at an upward angle to load and fire). Some of the shoulders still had slightly rounded edges but we're formed good enough. Then I tried it with a small amount of tissue in the neck to get more back pressure in the chamber and cases came out fully and perfectly formed. Actually had more recoil to it that let me know it was working better, but still not nearly as much recoil as firing a loaded round. Again, I will NOT condone this as a safe method, but it has worked for me. I definitely keep my safety glasses on the whole time and my face as far away from the action as possible.

For some of my cases that require lesser shoulder forming such as the 20 TAC from 223, I just size, load and shoot. Can't tell much of a difference in accuracy from the 23 degree shoulder angle of the 223 case to the resulting 30 degree 20 TAC shoulder.

 

[Brians356]

My reasoning for trying it with the case completely full (filled to bottom of neck)was that there isn't as much back pressure without a bullet. I first tried it in a 243 LBC Turbo 40 with nothing on the neck and it worked ok (pointed at an upward angle to load and fire). Some of the shoulders still had slightly rounded edges but we're formed good enough. Then I tried it with a small amount of tissue in the neck to get more back pressure in the chamber and cases came out fully and perfectly formed. Actually had more recoil to it that let me know it was working better, but still not nearly as much recoil as firing a loaded round. Again, I will NOT condone this as a safe method, but it has worked for me. I definitely keep my safety glasses on the whole time and my face as far away from the action as possible.

For some of my cases that require lesser shoulder forming such as the 20 TAC from 223, I just size, load and shoot. Can't tell much of a difference in accuracy from the 23 degree shoulder angle of the 223 case to the resulting 30 degree 20 TAC shoulder.

I don't see how putting a bit of tissue in the neck could spike pressure significantly. I also don't see how it could create more recoil. But I could be wrong - there's a first time for everything.
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[KentuckyFisherman]

Also, what your hands do is compensate "in and out" as well as for axial misalignment...... this can produce better looking shoulders because the cutter rides the existing shoulder even if it's somewhat wobbly.

I think this may be the answer right here. When I use a hand-held tool on brand-new Lapua, I often get a fair amount of wobble, but I just go with it. I get great looking cuts and it looks even down into the shoulder. If I took that same piece of brass and locked it up hard in some kind of lathe, that tooling likely wouldn't float like my hand does, so I can surely see how the shoulder cut might look horrific. Seems to me the solution is either: (1) Figure out some way to fireform the cases first, maybe the cream of wheat or similar method, or (2) Only use a hand-held cutter for that first neck cut.

 

[alinwa]

That's what Ken Howell recommended in his chapter on fireforming. Since he didn't explain why, I can only guess. And he was using filler, so that could factor in.

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Welll stank.....I either musta' forgot about it or I've got a later amended addition or ???

I also "remember" Howell moving on to powder only, no COW so somewhere in there I've moved away from what you're saying...

All's I know is I'd never recommend a pistol primer the way I do it.........I fireform at the same or higher pressures than with a bullet, in fact I've experimented and can easily expand primer pockets in one POP!

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I don't see how putting a bit of tissue in the neck could spike pressure significantly. I also don't see how it could create more recoil. But I could be wrong - there's a first time for everything.
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It does. I wad it up so it fits tight in the case neck. Don't know how much extra pressure it creates, probably not a massive amount, but it definitely increases it.

There is also a much louder report from the muzzle blast.

Example: No resistance pushing a bare cleaning rod down a bore. Put a patch on and you create a resistance that requires more energy and pressure on the back of the rod to move the it through the bore.
Takes more energy and pressure to move the tissue wad through the bore as well. That little bit of extra energy required pushes back at you creating more recoil.

Like I said, there's not a huge difference, but it can definitely be felt.

 

[fyrewall]

I never tried fire-forming without COW or something like that, like grits. It sure is messy, especially when the sugar in the stuff gets deposited inside the barrel.

I use any old primer, pistol or rifle and determine a start charge by filling the entire case up to the mouth with a common pistol powder, weighing that charge and reducing it by 85 percent to start, then increasing the charge amount by 2 grains until I get nice sharp shoulders. A .338 Win mag case filled to the mouth will hold about 80 grains of powder depending on powder density. During one fire-forming session using COW to fire form .30-06 to .338-06 I used a slightly excessive charge that caused sticky extraction and an enlarged primer pocket. After that I became more cautious and reloaded the mess, dumping toilet paper, COW, and HP-38 on wet concrete then putting a match to the mess. It did not take much HP-38 to get excessive pressures. Should I use only powder, I would cautiously work up a load. Putting some 35 grains of HP38 into a .338 Win mag case might cause some "fire-works" even without some small weight of COW and a TP wad.

Got to admit, skipping COW would make for cleaner fire-forming. I have no doubts that it would work but determining the right power charge would be needed. Transporting open brass cases to the range would require care to not dump contents but a small wad of TP would fix that.

My guess is that even a small wad of TP would spike pressures because the inside of the case (less volume) would be where the combustion occurred vs. the entire bore including inside the brass case.

I load belted cases so they head-space on the shoulder vs. belt and fire-forming enables me to get the desired head-space without using an expensive .375 bullet.

 

[Brians356]

I never tried fire-forming without COW or something like that, like grits. It sure is messy, especially when the sugar in the stuff gets deposited inside the barrel.

I use any old primer, pistol or rifle and determine a start charge by filling the entire case up to the mouth with a common pistol powder, weighing that charge and reducing it by 85 percent to start, then increasing the charge amount by 2 grains until I get nice sharp shoulders. A .338 Win mag case filled to the mouth will hold about 80 grains of powder depending on powder density. During one fire-forming session using COW to fire form .30-06 to .338-06 I used a slightly excessive charge that caused sticky extraction and an enlarged primer pocket. After that I became more cautious and reloaded the mess, dumping toilet paper, COW, and HP-38 on wet concrete then putting a match to the mess. It did not take much HP-38 to get excessive pressures. Should I use only powder, I would cautiously work up a load. Putting some 35 grains of HP38 into a .338 Win mag case might cause some "fire-works" even without some small weight of COW and a TP wad.

Got to admit, skipping COW would make for cleaner fire-forming. I have no doubts that it would work but determining the right power charge would be needed. Transporting open brass cases to the range would require care to not dump contents but a small wad of TP would fix that.

My guess is that even a small wad of TP would spike pressures because the inside of the case (less volume) would be where the combustion occurred vs. the entire bore including inside the brass case.

I load belted cases so they head-space on the shoulder vs. belt and fire-forming enables me to get the desired head-space without using an expensive .375 bullet.

Don't you transport cases in a partitioned plastic box with a latching lid? Lay some foam material (the right thickness, cut to fit inside the lid) on the case mouths, so that closing the lid compresses the foam somewhat, and forms a seal on every case mouth. You could play catch with the box and not spill a kernel, if the lid stays latched.

PS it takes a box short enough in height for the case mouths to rise above the partitions. Lacking such a box, the tissue wads should work, but you still need reasonable care in handling them. And to believe Ledd Slinger, the wad dramatically increases pressure, so much so you can feel the extra recoil.
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[Dusty Stevens]

I dont think some of yall are grasping what al and butch are saying. Do whatever you have to do to get the case to chamber. You can form 220r cases that the necks are too thick to fit in a .273nk ppc in a .262nk chamber no problem. Make them fit with bushings or whatever. If you run a thick neck into your normal sizing die itll just have a smaller I.D. But who cares youre not going to use a bullet anyway. Then fire with nothing but pistol powder or tissue over pistol powder (which burns up before it leaves the case btw not making any pressure) do not use a filler such as cow under any circumstance. Sooner or later youll have a bomb on your hands i assure you. I am lucky enough to use cases that are very full and if theres even 1gr of cow in there id know (this is how i know its going to get you sooner or later) there is no need for filler- no benefit but tremendous risk so dont do it!!

 

[fyrewall]

Pressures during fireforming apparently are related to the powder combustion volume inside of the case to be fire-formed. I have been using COW for many years being aware that the COW is a filler and thus reduces case capacity making a tiny amount of pistol powder generate enough uniform pressures to completely fire-form a large case - like sharp shoulders. I think the weight of the COW does not matter but the volume reduction is the important factor. I would not like to mix 1 grain of COW with a small amount of pistol powder because the burning characteristics of the pistol powder would be changed to the point where the event would be a "fizzle".

Fire-forming WO COW is of interest but I would need some data like amount of powder used in relation to case volume. Like, specifically how much pistol powder would be used to fire-form a .338 Win case to .375-.338. Would fire-forming be complete if the pistol powder was dumped from the case to inside the bore prior to setting off the primer? Is there some formula to determine how much pistol powder to use in relation to case volume? Would the primer blast wave blow the pistol powder down the bore in different degrees due to barrel elevation differences causing marked variations in pressures? What would happen should a major amount of pistol powder be ignited in non-COW fireforming should some bore obstruction be present - like a cleaning patch, unburned powder, or whatever? Would it be smart to look down the bore prior to firing each COW-less fire-form load (waiting for the smoke to clear)? Would the mass of a charge of pistol powder act as a filler thus reducing case volume resulting in pressure spikes?

I got to know more about this stuff before I try dumping some un-known amount of pistol powder in a big case and setting it off.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Pressures during fireforming apparently are related to the powder combustion volume inside of the case to be fire-formed. I have been using COW for many years being aware that the COW is a filler and thus reduces case capacity making a tiny amount of pistol powder generate enough uniform pressures to completely fire-form a large case - like sharp shoulders. I think the weight of the COW does not matter but the volume reduction is the important factor. I would not like to mix 1 grain of COW with a small amount of pistol powder because the burning characteristics of the pistol powder would be changed to the point where the event would be a "fizzle".

Fire-forming WO COW is of interest but I would need some data like amount of powder used in relation to case volume. Like, specifically how much pistol powder would be used to fire-form a .338 Win case to .375-.338. Would fire-forming be complete if the pistol powder was dumped from the case to inside the bore prior to setting off the primer? Is there some formula to determine how much pistol powder to use in relation to case volume? Would the primer blast wave blow the pistol powder down the bore in different degrees due to barrel elevation differences causing marked variations in pressures? What would happen should a major amount of pistol powder be ignited in non-COW fireforming should some bore obstruction be present - like a cleaning patch, unburned powder, or whatever? Would it be smart to look down the bore prior to firing each COW-less fire-form load (waiting for the smoke to clear)? Would the mass of a charge of pistol powder act as a filler thus reducing case volume resulting in pressure spikes?

I got to know more about this stuff before I try dumping some un-known amount of pistol powder in a big case and setting it off.

You have to work up to it until it forms to your satisfaction. Load and fire with the muzzle pointing straight up so the powder is on top of the primer

 

[Brians356]

I got to know more about this stuff before I try dumping some un-known amount of pistol powder in a big case and setting it off.

Well, you can study it and calculate all you want, but ultimately you will still not find out what's going to happen, and how the case will form, until you pour in the powder and make it go "Boom". It's trial and error, unless you find someone who's forming your exact case, and has a recipe you can follow. AFAIC a wide open case, with just pistol powder ( and no bore obstruction) is not a safety issue (pointed skyward of course). It's just finding the minimum charge to form the case to your satisfaction. Start with, say, 50% more powder than you use with COW, and adjust from there on a few culls. I'd use a pistol primer, seems less likely to expell the powder.
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[DJSBRS]

Everyone of you can or have made a contribution on how something can be done based on your scenario that fits your comfort level. One can wash the car by starting at any fender, trunk or hood first, We should all agree one should start with the roof and work down and start where the final results puts you in your comfort zone.

If a shooter was caught at our private club range pointing a rifle in the air and pulling the trigger to use the COW method, they would be banned for life. So, understand that your technique that works for you and could work for others may not be applicable for everyone.

I have turned hundreds of thousands' pieces of brass in my lifetime and can assure you none of them came out of the box perfectly concentric from one end to the other. Anything you do to them is not anything less than moving the brass and taking some off. Fire forming is no more than moving brass from one place to another. However, it will start moving from the weakest point first. This may not be always at the same location on each piece of brass. Thus, there will be some slight volume and length variations from a batch. Unless the brass is fired by what ever source and trimmed to exact preferred length, turning necks will show high and low spots on the shoulder where the cutter stops on the way down with new unfired brass. Hydro forming causes the brass to flow sideways due to the force of pressure forcing down the neck and not out the neck. Shorter cases in length, but less case body stretch within the walls at weakest spots in the case wall. I realize this statement is very debatable.

All of the processes noted in the above threads works to someone's acceptable standards. It comes down to "how much fly poop you want to pick out of the pepper". Chocolate and vanilla is made due to different taste.

Try to look and the other guys perspective and understand you may not know their skillset , abilities and furthermore their desire to apply or perform the extreme methods of reloading proficiency. What matters is that we all share our experience's in a respectful manner and allow those of interest to explore their willingness to grow along with their desire and passion for the art of reloading as we have.

Perfection is only relative to the person that is measuring it to their specific standards. I personally value all of your contribution's to the betterment of the sport. I am so excited about the next method that can help someone excel in their shooting sport endeavors.

Just my .02¢ worth of time.

Thanks for all you do for all of us.

DJ
DJ's Brass Service

 

[alinwa]

...................................If a shooter was caught at our private club range pointing a rifle in the air and pulling the trigger to use the COW method, they would be banned for life.



DJ
DJ's Brass Service

And your rationale for this policy is???

Sounds like you'd fit right in with the current "zero tolerance policies" implemented by our pubic school systems......

 

[Brians356]

Just my .02¢ worth of time.

Then by my reckoning you work for about ten cents per hour. Don't sell yourself short. A lecture like that's worth at least six bits.
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[DJSBRS]

And your rationale for this policy is???

Sounds like you'd fit right in with the current "zero tolerance policies" implemented by our pubic school systems......

Not my policy, just my opinion in which everyone is entitled to. Some just do not respect other opinions and I am not one of those.

Good day!

DJ

 

[DJSBRS]

Then by my reckoning you work for about ten cents per hour. Don't sell yourself short. A lecture like that's worth at least six bits.
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75¢ won't buy me a cup of coffee! Thanks for your support.

DJ

 

[alinwa]

Not my policy, just my opinion in which everyone is entitled to. Some just do not respect other opinions and I am not one of those.

Good day!

DJ

OK

at least now I understand how you can make the statement you did

I find people fascinating

I still like chicken