well Bart Sauter is at it again- Cool Acres results

[LRPV]

#2 needs to stay like it is. A big part of the game the way it is now is mental and if you can't keep it together in the head you don't win. I've seen a lot of good people do stupid things and if you can't keep them on paper, well, too bad.

One thing I could see doing, keep track of X counts and use X's to break score ties instead of the best group.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

get a penalty not a DQ. getting DQ for missing a target but not crossfiring? that does make a lot of folks angry and may keep them from coming back. how about a 1/2moa penalty for each shot not on the record target?

 

[jamesdmock]

It was a great Match! Good people, good food, made some new friends! Kim and I enjoyed meeting the “Men from Manatee!” Steve Krauss, Roger Johnson, Thoma Kozar and Al Benarroch!

Full disclosure! I won the 2 Gun only by pencil-whipping Seth Wooten! He should have been the 2 gun winner! Fortunately, I have the agenda item drawn up (with plenty of signatures) that will fix how the 2 Gun will be calculated!

I’ll post the remainder of the results once I wake up!

Bart

Congratulations Colonel Bart. When you're hot, you're hot! Keep up the good work and good luck at the Super Shoot.

 

[johara1]

Number 3 would help cut down on all the complainting about relay (pick a number) has such an advantage! Let the shooter decide if he wants to run or pick and when he wants to!

This a 600 yard suggestion, not for 1000 yard competitions! 1000 yard matches have been around long enough that they are perfect!

If that is the case, Have a drawing, for bench and relay before the match, not the computer drawing that is BS. You have a choice to run them or pick um. You can't go back to the sighter at all places, having to move the rest too much to go back to the target from birds on the bank and back again..... Not everybody uses plates by the target.....You can't make short range stuff work at 600..... Plus you get a new guy how can you get him on the sighter doing a record string, with no sight in period .....jim

 

[LRPV]

get a penalty not a DQ. getting DQ for missing a target but not crossfiring? that does make a lot of folks angry and may keep them from coming back. how about a 1/2moa penalty for each shot not on the record target?

It's a big target. What do you guys do in short range if there is more or less than 5 on? I've never been to a short range shoot. It takes 5 to make a group in 600yd, no more no less.

I shot a 10.5" horizontal group at the 2013 Nationals in St. Louis. I think I finished like 18th in two gun but there were a BUNCH of DQ's that year. By the 1/2 moa penalty rule someone could have beat me by keeping 4 on but losing the 5th and only getting a 3" penalty so I basically get screwed for doing my job staying ON paper? That doesn't seem right to me.

 

[BartsBullets]

#2 needs to stay like it is. A big part of the game the way it is now is mental and if you can't keep it together in the head you don't win. I've seen a lot of good people do stupid things and if you can't keep them on paper, well, too bad.

One thing I could see doing, keep track of X counts and use X's to break score ties instead of the best group.

Jason,

They still wouldn’t win but give them a healthy penalty instead of killing them. I’ve had a lot of shooters say it’s a stupid rule. 15 or more got blown off the target at St. Louis at least they could complete against themselves.

 

[BartsBullets]

It's a big target. What do you guys do in short range if there is more or less than 5 on? I've never been to a short range shoot. It takes 5 to make a group in 600yd, no more no less.

I shot a 10.5" horizontal group at the 2013 Nationals in St. Louis. I think I finished like 18th in two gun but there were a BUNCH of DQ's that year. By the 1/2 moa penalty rule someone could have beat me by keeping 4 on but losing the 5th and only getting a 3" penalty so I basically get screwed for doing my job staying ON paper? That doesn't seem right to me.

NBRSA gives a 1 MOA Penilty per shot missing or for a crossfire. You must confess to the crossfire because if you don’t own up to it and they have to figure it out with stationary backers you are disqualified. As far as extra shots you can shoot the target as much as you want it never makes the groups smaller. There have been many times when I’ve had a bug hole and I shot at it an addition time because I couldn’t find a piece of brass that rolled off the bench.
Better to shoot 6 then risk the penalty.

You are absolutely right there will be rare times when it would be better have missed the target. Just assign 1 MOA Penalty per shot missing. But at that point you’re both out of it.

Btw 600 yard bench is the only shooting disciple that you can crossfire on yourself!

Bart

 

[BartsBullets]

If that is the case, Have a drawing, for bench and relay before the match, not the computer drawing that is BS. You have a choice to run them or pick um. You can't go back to the sighter at all places, having to move the rest too much to go back to the target from birds on the bank and back again..... Not everybody uses plates by the target.....You can't make short range stuff work at 600..... Plus you get a new guy how can you get him on the sighter doing a record string, with no sight in period .....jim

Jim,

Clays or plate same thing! Shoot when you want to!

The first match would have an additional 3 minutes. If you can’t get sighted in in 10 minutes you can’t do it in 6 either.

 

[LA50SHOOTER]

Sir
That was was completely uncalled for. Not good!
Jim

My Wife is Oriental and a shooter & American Citizen (not competition but still a shooter all the same) And says from now on he will be known as "Retarded" rather than Retired.

 

[BartsBullets]

If that is the case, Have a drawing, for bench and relay before the match, not the computer drawing that is BS. You have a choice to run them or pick um. You can't go back to the sighter at all places, having to move the rest too much to go back to the target from birds on the bank and back again..... Not everybody uses plates by the target.....You can't make short range stuff work at 600..... Plus you get a new guy how can you get him on the sighter doing a record string, with no sight in period .....jim

I’d encourage everyone to get out and shoot or at least observe some other disciplines and see How things are done.
I think it would open some eyes and maybe minds.


Jim can you tell me the reasoning why the current method is best. Other then that’s how it’s always been done at 1000 yards?

BTW it will Work as long as there’s a place/method to see sighters.

 

[Tom E]

Bart,
I can go along with the two agenda rules you wrote up .
But the dq rule is a good thing.

If you can't keep them on your target or crossfire on you own target it needs to be a dq, this is not short range , and I'm pretty sure most of them dont Care about shooting short range or they would be.
That idea seems like to me a participation prize, everyone is a winner? Not a discipline of excellence.

Relay draws could be worked on , not sure what would be best.
I do know that whatever it is, all ranges should follow it to the letter.

 

[BartsBullets]

Bart,
I can go along with the two agenda rules you wrote up .
But the dq rule is a good thing.

If you can't keep them on your target or crossfire on you own target it needs to be a dq, this is not short range , and I'm pretty sure most of them dont Care about shooting short range or they would be.
That idea seems like to me a participation prize, everyone is a winner? Not a discipline of excellence.

Relay draws could be worked on , not sure what would be best.
I do know that whatever it is, all ranges should follow it to the letter.

Tommy,

I can buy what youre saying about the Dq rule. I can see both sides of it. However, I know for a FACT that we have lost shooters because of it.

BTW this short range talk is getting pretty old. Have you even been in the parking lot of a short range group match? I’m not coming up with stuff because I'm a short range shooter but because of complaints and suggestions I’ve heard from other 600 yard Shooters!

Bart

 

[WyleWD]

Bart, congratulations fellow. Good things happen when you work hard and live right I guess.... keep it up and probably see ya in a couple weeks. WD

 

[BartsBullets]

Bart,
I can go along with the two agenda rules you wrote up .
But the dq rule is a good thing.

If you can't keep them on your target or crossfire on you own target it needs to be a dq, this is not short range , and I'm pretty sure most of them dont Care about shooting short range or they would be.
That idea seems like to me a participation prize, everyone is a winner? Not a discipline of excellence.

Relay draws could be worked on , not sure what would be best.
I do know that whatever it is, all ranges should follow it to the letter.

Tommy here’s a quick question for you.

At your PRS Match you said you had a couple of bad stations that you missed your plate. Did you get Disqualified for missing your target? No you did not! If they told you game over and pack your bags no score for you! it would taste pretty bad!

Now think about a new shooter who drove ten hours for a match misses his target and is sent packing!

Disqualification should be reserved for safety violations! Penalties are for screw ups! The current Dq rules are just mean spirited.

Bart

 

[Stan Taylor]

Spoken by the man who was the head of the dying sport of 1000 yard benchrest!
Probably should have used your Crystal ball while you were the head a of it!

I didn't say I don't agree with the agenda but some the other scenarios I just don't understand the reasoning for that stuff thanks for straightning me out LOL.PS I apologize for saying anything at all here on this post I am only a shooter of our organization what I have to say doesn't matter anymore again I apologize for the interruption.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

We have been down this road many times. While its fun to talk about these changes and some may even make these sports better it my opinion that attendance will always be a small dedicated group. Benchrest is a sport of excellence and it takes a certain type. While it would be great to see the numbers get huge and Im all about trying, Im very happy with the group we have. The biggest things we can do IMO is expose people to the sport and not piss off the guys we have. But to be fair I think the 600 and 1000 yard has seen an increase in participation in the last few years.

 

[johara1]

I’d encourage everyone to get out and shoot or at least observe some other disciplines and see How things are done.
I think it would open some eyes and maybe minds.


Jim can you tell me the reasoning why the current method is best. Other then that’s how it’s always been done at 1000 yards?

BTW it will Work as long as there’s a place/method to see sighters.

No it will not, you have to move too far from the target to the birds. it takes too much time, by the time you get back to the target and reload the condition changed. Even a NEO can't do it with movement of the handle. The other thing is if can't keep them on the paper that is your fault, I saw whole relays get DQed. nobody bitched...... One more thing it is raining and the ground is wet to the point of not seeing your sighters without help... then what??jim

 

[BartsBullets]

No it will not, you have to move too far from the target to the birds. it takes too much time, by the time you get back to the target and reload the condition changed. Even a NEO can't do it with movement of the handle. The other thing is if can't keep them on the paper that is your fault, I saw whole relays get DQed. nobody bitched...... One more thing it is raining and the ground is wet to the point of not seeing your sighters without help... then what??jim

Jim,

If it takes to long for you, Don't do it! What I'm talking about is 600 yard matches. This has nothing to do with 1000 yards. However, I've not been to 600 or 1000 yard Range that I couldn't go from sighter to record and back if I needed to! You can go from the sighter to your record now at matches. At St Louis while the conditions were rough, several of us could hear the sighter plates being shot during record fire.

"Can't keep them on target is your fault." I agree with that a 100%. I just don't agree with the penalty. Give them 1MOA per missing shot. If a man misses the target 5 times and can still win with a 30 inch group and a score of Zero. Hell he deserves to win!

Ok I amend my if I were King for a day to say, "the first match of an aggregate will consist of a 3 minute sightin period, and 7 minute record fire." Shooters not able to get sighted in durning the initial sightin period will be given additional time."

How's that? Better?

 

[BartsBullets]

I didn't say I don't agree with the agenda but some the other scenarios I just don't understand the reasoning for that stuff thanks for straightning me out LOL.PS I apologize for saying anything at all here on this post I am only a shooter of our organization what I have to say doesn't matter anymore again I apologize for the interruption.

Stan

Don't get your pants in a wad. I said I was putting my helmet on! I didn't say I wasn't going to fire back.

For the record I'm not submitting my If I were "King for a day ideas" for an agenda Item. They are just thoughts.

No need for anyone to get feelings hurt. This is just a discussion.

But I'm going to defend my positions and in some cases punch back when I detect I'm being talked down to!

Got plenty of text and pm saying they agree with me!

 

[johara1]

Jim,

If it takes to long for you, Don't do it! What I'm talking about is 600 yard matches. This has nothing to do with 1000 yards. However, I've not been to 600 or 1000 yard Range that I couldn't go from sighter to record and back if I needed to! You can go from the sighter to your record now at matches. At St Louis while the conditions were rough, several of us could hear the sighter plates being shot during record fire.

"Can't keep them on target is your fault." I agree with that a 100%. I just don't agree with the penalty. Give them 1MOA per missing shot. If a man misses the target 5 times and can still win with a 30 inch group and a score of Zero. Hell he deserves to win!

Ok I amend my if I were King for a day to say, "the first match of an aggregate will consist of a 3 minute sightin period, and 7 minute record fire." Shooters not able to get sighted in durning the initial sightin period will be given additional time."

How's that? Better?

Bart, you are missing the point, I'm speaking from a 600 range that uses birds on the bank in front of pull targets .... you can't do it, If you can't see the hit you are dead in the water. The places you shoot use plates .. right?.... jim