Rifling. Old subject but not really

[STS]

And for makers who pull the button, I'm guessing they suck it through with vacuum.

That girl I had my eye on in high school.

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

Is it something to do with inconsistent quality control...?

Again; no offense to Shilen, but if so I am glad they don't assemble engines for Jaguar.

I have nearly 148,000 miles on it, just air, oil and filter changes PRN.

 

[BoydAllen]

First of all, I think that we need to limit the discussion to top grade barrels particularly since I am not aware of any new factory rifles that are available with cut barrels. Looking at the process normally used for top grade barrels, both button and cut are drilled, reamed and either lapped or honed with one of the new Sunnen machines before rifling. If all is well, at the end of the lapping or honing there should be no tool marks. As far as why Shilen makes two grades of barrels, I believe that they do not want to throw away that part of the barrel business that does not want to pay for the extra labor involved in lapping after rifling. Getting back to the question a friend used to build some of the very best M1A service rifles and he told me that in that application cut last longer than button, but for customers on a tighter budget he still built rifles buttoned barrels. Either one can produce gratifying accuracy. I have seen it. On the stress relieving of cut barrels Kreiger's cryo treatment of blanks before they are drilled improves drilling results. Years ago he told me that for that reason alone it was worth the cost. A relatively new barrel maker Proof Research sells some of their barrels without carbon fiber wrapping. As I understand they heat stress relieve their blanks and they are a cut barrels. A friend who had done a number of builds with their wrapped barrels tells me that unlike some other wrapped barrels, theirs feel uniform from end to end when he pushes a cast measuring lap through them, and they look good when examined with a bore scope. As far as I am aware no one is using the unwrapped barrels in competition but the wrapped ones have given my friend excellent results for hunting builds. One variant on the button side is Broughton's stress relieving after contouring in addition to the usual heat stress relieving that is standard for all button barrel manufacturers. My friend cast laps as a routine matter, to measure bore dimensions and look for tight and loose spots. He offers this service to customers to save time and expense by not working on a barrel that has problems that cannot be fixed. He also does this to new, unchambered barrels to protect himself from wasting time on a barrel that has issues that require replacement.

 

[Someoldguy]

First of all, I think that we need to limit the discussion to top grade barrels particularly since I am not aware of any new factory rifles that are available with cut barrels. Looking at the process normally used for top grade barrels, both button and cut are drilled, reamed and either lapped or honed with one of the new Sunnen machines before rifling. If all is well, at the end of the lapping or honing there should be no tool marks. As far as why Shilen makes two grades of barrels, I believe that they do not want to throw away that part of the barrel business that does not want to pay for the extra labor involved in lapping after rifling. Getting back to the question a friend used to build some of the very best M1A service rifles and he told me that in that application cut last longer than button, but for customers on a tighter budget he still built rifles buttoned barrels. Either one can produce gratifying accuracy. I have seen it. On the stress relieving of cut barrels Kreiger's cryo treatment of blanks before they are drilled improves drilling results. Years ago he told me that for that reason alone it was worth the cost. A relatively new barrel maker Proof Research sells some of their barrels without carbon fiber wrapping. As I understand they heat stress relieve their blanks and they are a cut barrels. A friend who had done a number of builds with their wrapped barrels tells me that unlike some other wrapped barrels, theirs feel uniform from end to end when he pushes a cast measuring lap through them, and they look good when examined with a bore scope. As far as I am aware no one is using the unwrapped barrels in competition but the wrapped ones have given my friend excellent results for hunting builds. One variant on the button side is Broughton's stress relieving after contouring in addition to the usual heat stress relieving that is standard for all button barrel manufacturers. My friend cast laps as a routine matter, to measure bore dimensions and look for tight and loose spots. He offers this service to customers to save time and expense by not working on a barrel that has problems that cannot be fixed. He also does this to new, unchambered barrels to protect himself from wasting time on a barrel that has issues that require replacement.

So, . . . . how 'receptive' are the barrel makers to barrels returned for un-uniform interior dimensions?

Do you have to be 'somebody' to call a 'spade' a 'spade', or just know what you're looking for?

I do not know about premium barrels, but this issue is rampant in factory rifles. Either that, or I have the un-natural skill of picking out the rifle with the worst barrel in the store every dog-gone time.

 

[Zero333]

It's not hard to figure out why Shilen offers 2 grades of barrels...

All their barrels must air gauge withing xxx amount.
Then they take the best of the best (ones that have the best air gauge measurements) and sell them at a higher price because you guys will pay for it even if it doesn't shoot any better.

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY CLAIM ON THEIR WEBSITE !!! THEY DON'T HIDE IT !!!

Both their Stainless Match and Select Match are made exactly the same and get the same exact treatment with lapping etc.

I have both grades of Shilen barrels on my rifles and THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN ACCURACY. Only price.

 

[Zero333]

Is it something to do with inconsistent quality control...?

Again; no offense to Shilen, but if so I am glad they don't assemble engines for Jaguar.

I have nearly 148,000 miles on it, just air, oil and filter changes PRN.

Maybe your 150,000 miles is like 15,000 of mine .

And my Yamaha R6 spends most of her life between 10,000 and 17,000 RPM !!!

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

After my cancer surgery last April, I traded my Fat Boy for a Free Wheeler. You would have liked the FB. The local HD dealer installed the factory 120R kit, with the big injectors, 60mm throttle body, and the comp version of the Vance&Hines 2into1 pipe. 130 back tire HP and same amount of torque. Both by 4400rpm. Best run was 10:82 at 140mph. I like fast.

 

[Zero333]

After my cancer surgery last April, I traded my Fat Boy for a Free Wheeler. You would have liked the FB. The local HD dealer installed the factory 120R kit, with the big injectors, 60mm throttle body, and the comp version of the Vance&Hines 2into1 pipe. !30 back tire HP and same amount of torque. Both by 4400rpm. Best run was 10:82 at 140mph. I like fast.

10.8 at 140 is damn fast !!! I am indeed impressed

 

[butchlambert]

After my cancer surgery last April, I traded my Fat Boy for a Free Wheeler. You would have liked the FB. The local HD dealer installed the factory 120R kit, with the big injectors, 60mm throttle body, and the comp version of the Vance&Hines 2into1 pipe. !30 back tire HP and same amount of torque. Both by 4400rpm. Best run was 10:82 at 140mph. I like fast.

Hey Rich,
Did you go to their website and read yet? All of their SS barrels are machined and lapped the same. The ones that do not meet Select match specs, are regulated to the match barrel rack. The rest are scrapped.
Boyd, all Shilen Barrels are lapped now, including the CM. I do not use the select match on a hunting rifle as it ain't worth the extra money to pick up a .050 increase in accuracy.
Rich, does your Jag a where have the Ford motor?

 

[BoydAllen]

It would seem that my information was out of date. Thanks for the corrections. Sorry about the misinformation.

On the question about factory barrels, some time back I decided that with a limited budget that I would have fewer rifles with better barrels than the other way around. Fortunately I have been lucky and those rifles that have factory barrels that I have picked up over the years have pretty decent barrels. I save those for field use (not much lately) and have purpose built rifles that only go to the range. I made that decision years ago, and it has proved to be a good one. The first one was has a Hart barrel with a tight neck .222 chamber. I don't know how many fellows that I have met over the years that have umptyzillion rifles and not one that has outstanding accuracy. IMO they would be much better off if they sold a few and did a custom build, using the best components.

 

[yotehater]

Funny thread. I was just laughing at the air pressure it would take to push an oversized carbide rifling button through a barrel blank. Surely some engineer knows how to figure that. 100,000 psi or more?

And pulling one? Hold on I just spilled coffee everywhere, lol.

 

[Eddie Harren]

Funny thread. I was just laughing at the air pressure it would take to push an oversized carbide rifling button through a barrel blank. Surely some engineer knows how to figure that. 100,000 psi or more?

And pulling one? Hold on I just spilled coffee everywhere, lol.

Please tell us how they get that button through the barrel blank if, they don't push it or pull it.

 

[yotehater]

It sure ain't air pressure. I'd hate to be anywhere around that building.

There is a machine that pulls and turns it using hydraulic pressure. And the buttons can be made in any dimension or twist. That one post is full of misinformation.

 

[Stan Taylor]

It sure ain't air pressure. I'd hate to be anywhere around that building.

There is a machine that pulls and turns it using hydraulic pressure. And the buttons can be made in any dimension or twist. That one post is full of misinformation.

I think Dusty put a short video of button rifling either on this page or the one before.

 

[yotehater]

There are air pressure gauges that are monitored to insure at least a minimum level during each barrels rifling

Like this is total nonsense.

They are air gauged after rifling. It is a completely different step where they push a small volume of air through the barrel and carefully watch for any difference in flow. That indicates a tight or loose portion of the barrel. It has nothing to do with rifling the barrel.

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

Butch,

Jaguar was putting twin cam engines in cars before Henry gave up on the flathead motors. My first jaguar was a 1967 XK-E coupe. It had the gorgeous inline six. I missed out on the V-12's, Ford did a decent job of swiping the XK-8 four cam, four valve per cylinder. I expect that experience with the technology was one of the major reasons Ford bought them.

To the resident experts; one of you says they push, another one says they pull, and yet another says they just run compressed air thru after rifling. For the last one, air must have blockage to build pressure.

As far as the theory that using air pressure would be dangerous, never fire a firearm again. Including air rifles. They all rely on rapidly expanding air pressure to push the projectile down the barrel.

Rich

 

[Eddie Harren]

Is your Jaguar pushed, pulled or cut?

 

[hikfromstik]

Lilja website has a good picture of how he buttons a barrel . Looks like a solid steel billet with the twist thread cut into the outside . . Looks like there would be no way for the twist rate to change . http://riflebarrels.com/twist-machine/

 

[okie]

Is your Jaguar pushed, pulled or cut?

LOL

 

[6MMsteve]

I see Broughton barrels win quite a bit in long range BR and Shilen barrels are so smooth pushing a patch through, I 'm gonna purchase a Broughton barrel maybe next year if I can scrape up the money