Ladder or OCW for 100/200 load with new powder and caliber

[urbanrifleman]

So, if you were going to work up a short range load for absolutely optimum accuracy how would you do it? All variables are new. 200 yard for powder charge ladder? OCW to find the nodes? Which node would you choose?

Any other help would be appreciated.

 

[Cowtownup]

At the 200 yard range I would definately use the OCW method. Having said that, I'd probably shoot a ladder followed by the exact same ladder just out of pure curiousity...

 

[BartsBullets]

So, if you were going to work up a short range load for absolutely optimum accuracy how would you do it? All variables are new. 200 yard for powder charge ladder? OCW to find the nodes? Which node would you choose?

Any other help would be appreciated.

What cartridge are you shooting? What are you going to be shooting with it? Group, score????

Bart

 

[dmoran]

Myself suggest Tony Boyer's method for 100/200, which is multiple charge weights and seating depths at the same time. @BartsBullets and others have shared targets and results of the method here on the site.
Donovan

 

[urbanrifleman]

What cartridge are you shooting? What are you going to be shooting with it? Group, score????

Bart

I have several calibers I am going to be working up using the LT-32 powder. 223, 223A, and 6br with 70 grain bullet. I shoot groups at 100 and 200 mostly.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I was going to shoot three ladders at 200 and look for the top two nodes. All using 20 thou seating. Then take the charge and try .035 to .010 in for group.

 

[retired]

if these are factory rifles with mags, ok.
if no mag or not factory, i like starting at the lands and move in and out from there.
no pressure increase later when you hit the lands,
just me

 

[urbanrifleman]

if these are factory rifles with mags, ok.
if no mag or not factory, i like starting at the lands and move in and out from there.
no pressure increase later when you hit the lands,
just me

Ok I will go .010 into to start.

 

[retired]

i am actually working on a 223 adl as we speak. i am going to start at mag length.

 

[retired]

back to length.
i was checking what would fit in the mag and where the lands are on this rifle.
(its new) the mag will handle 2.3,
ends up with a berger 55 seated to 2.260 i am just touching the lands !
max saami spec and at the lands on a factory rifle..no way!
so off to load a ladder and hopefully shoot at 300. i have 55,60 and 64's to try in this rifle.
my first bolt 223...lots of ar's, mostly target rifles.

 

[BartsBullets]

So, if you were going to work up a short range load for absolutely optimum accuracy how would you do it? All variables are new. 200 yard for powder charge ladder? OCW to find the nodes? Which node would you choose?

Any other help would be appreciated.

Urban,

With my bench guns long or short range I start tuning with the bullet seated at Jam. That’s as far out as the rifle will let me seat a bullet without pushing it back in the case when I close the bolt. I do this because it leaves me only one way to go.

Then I load say 5 to 6 different loads going up in equal increments. For short range I use 3 tenths. For long range I use 2 tenth increments. I’ll load 3 rounds of each load.

Then I’ll shoot 3 shot groups with each of the different loads all at the same seating depth. Which is Jam to start out with. Then I’ll load the same loads and repeat but change the seating depth. For short range I use .003 increments for long range bullets I use .005! I’ll do this normally with 5 different seating depths.

So by the time you’re done you should be able to tell what powder load your gun prefers. What range of powder your gun will shoot over and stay in tune and what seating depth it likes.

This is shooting over wind flags and calling my shots as I go along. If you’re not comfortable with wind flags or don’t have them use the OCW method.

If you want to talk about it you can pull up my website bartsbullets.com and get the shop number. I should be around most of tomorrow.

As always the same warnings as usual start low and work your way up.

Bart

 

[urbanrifleman]

If you want to talk about it you can pull up my website bartsbullets.com and get the shop number. I should be around most of tomorrow.

As always the same warnings as usual start low and work your way up.

Bart

Bart you are always so quick to help. God bless you. How nice.

I have used the OCW method before and it did work quite well. But so many people are advocating ladders these days I thought I would help. I have never started from hard jam. I think I will!!!

But to tell you the truth, I am pretty sure I am going to end up very close to the same load as everyone else.

I was curious as to why more people don't shoot the "accuracy node" usually found one below the top node. Is the top pressure easiest to keep in tune? I know in 223 (really I tune to NATO pressures) the cartridge loves the pressure. About the time you are flattening primers in an AR15 it is really hammering. And it is pretty easy to keep it in that band.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

This is what the targets look like using the method described in Boyer's book, and by Bart (above). 30BR, 100yd, 3-shot groups, H4198 33.5-34.1-34.7gr, jam=1.737 on the Wilson seater stem, touch=1.754.

 

[BartsBullets]

Toby,

That’s real close but I’ll run 5 powder charges with one seating depth. Then change. I want to see which seating depth is the most forgiving over varying powder charges.

Bart

 

[urbanrifleman]

I see that!!!

You are at "hard jam"? How do you go about finding HARD jam? I use a modified case to find touching and have for years. Are you seating a bullet with full seating tension and then trying to close the bolt?

It would seem, if you are starting from scratch, you would still have to shoot a ladder at first just to find the upper node.

 

[WyleWD]

Toby,

That’s real close but I’ll run 5 powder charges with one seating depth. Then change. I want to see which seating depth is the most forgiving over varying powder charges.

Bart

Bart, do you chronograph each shot of each group and record the results on the target? Thanks. WD.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

That’s real close but I’ll run 5 powder charges with one seating depth. Then change. I want to see which seating depth is the most forgiving over varying powder charges.

Bart

I covered about the same range of charge (1.2gr) and seating depth (jam to jam - 0.015), just in bigger increments than you (0.6gr on powder, 0.005 on seating depth). My 30BRs haven't been too fussy, and of course I can always fiddle around in finer increments within the desired range once the coarse tuning has been done.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

How do you go about finding HARD jam? I use a modified case to find touching and have for years. Are you seating a bullet with full seating tension and then trying to close the bolt?

Yes.

It would seem, if you are starting from scratch, you would still have to shoot a ladder at first just to find the upper node.

I run a pressure test, one shot each with increasing charge at the jam, while fireforming brass, so I know where the practical max is.

 

[BartsBullets]

I see that!!!

You are at "hard jam"? How do you go about finding HARD jam? I use a modified case to find touching and have for years. Are you seating a bullet with full seating tension and then trying to close the bolt?

It would seem, if you are starting from scratch, you would still have to shoot a ladder at first just to find the upper node.

For hard jam I size a case just like I was going to shoot it. Seat a bullet in the empty case that is too long. Get a measurement on the bullet before and after putting it in the rifle and closing the bolt. This can be a little tricky because sometimes the bullet will want to stick especially if you run light neck tension. But you’ll get a feel for it.

When I run this test it’s with calibers that I’m already familiar with such as the PPC. So in the example I’m running powder charges that should hit a node where the gun will shoot. With the 6PPC I’m really more interested in getting the proper seating depth, because by the time I pull it back out again the load window will most likely have moved. At matches we are constantly chasing the tune.

A lot of 1000 and 600 yard shooters believe that once they find the load/tune for their guns they are done! They believe that it will shoot right there all year! However the big guns drift in and out of tune just like all the others. Just not as quick and Violently as a 6 PPC

If you’re not familiar with the gun/caliber you might want to run some loads to see where the upper end is.

Bart

 

[BartsBullets]

Bart, do you chronograph each shot of each group and record the results on the target? Thanks. WD.

I use to not! But I do now because the labradar is so easy I go ahead and throw it on the bench.