• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Question for SRBR guys

Richard Jones

First I drink the coffee, then I do the things.
Gold $$ Contributor
So there is a lot of info out there about long range load development, ladders, nodes, etc. What do SR guys do? If you were to load for 100 yard max, how would you go about it? Do you go through the ladder, OCW, etc. ? Or just pick a powder and test with charges and seating depths?

As long as it's safe, would you even care about chronoing?

Thanks for your input.

Rich
 
go to a match and watch...constant tuning and record keeping
2 maybe 3 powders, a known bullet.
start with a simple single string ladder to see velocities and find max
then start shooting 3 or 5 shot groups, then play with depth and neck tension
lots of variables require good records
calm and time
 
@Bill Norris
Bill would you share a brief synopsis of your short range load development techniques ?
I pretty much follow the pattern that Erik Cortina goes thru on his U-tube video. He says begin @ .020 off the lands but I normally start at .010 off the lands.


(1) Find powder charge first with bullets seated at .010 off the lands by loading 3 rds. @ .03 grain intervals at 5 or 6 or more steps. Some will work both ways from .010 off the lands and into the lands increasing jam by .003 per load interval.
(2) Look for lowest Extreme Spread from those loads. Do not worry about group size at this point as E S is the first thing to establish.
(3) Adjust neck tension to fine tune Extreme Spread as well if needed.
(4) Once the desired E S is obtained then adjust seating depth to tune barrel harmonics and fine tune with tuner if applicable. NOTE The tuner will NOT compensate for poor load development. There is no "free lunch" period.

This has worked well for me with hunting and BR rifles. However, all my rifles are custom built with good stocks and bedding by my "Smith". (WSMNUT) All my load development is done from my bench with a front rest and bag for the BR rifles and F-class type bi-pod and bag for the hunting rifles.

As you are well aware load development and tuning will never be accomplished with improper bedding, unstable rest and bench, or improperly mounted scope rings & bases. Any of these areas not up to par will over-shadow all load development. Hope this helps.
 
Never did a ladder or an OCW in my life. Don't use a crony to develop loads. Pretty much a vaiation of Tonys methods I guess. Over 30 years of various types of bench matches I have developed a process that works for me. I was one of the first guys I saw using a tuner. I don't use it to develop a load but to keep my load in tune. Listen, read, developed a process that works for you. I will say when I started to get past 300 yard short range I found out there was a lot more to learn and do. I now do everything for every range.Now after all that.....flags.....flags......always. There is no quick, short, easy answer........work is involved.
 
He says begin @ .020 off the lands but I normally start at .010 off the lands.
In short range I've never started off the lands (never won a nationals but have won against a lot of guys that have won the nationals!) We mostly start into the lands maybe .009 or so and work our way out .002 at a time, if we don't get the results we are looking for by the time we are out of the lands we go back in deeper. In SHORT RANGE I've never found out of the lands node, that's just me. EDIT: this was with a 6PPC and 6 Grendel, the 30 Major and 30 BR were into the lands much more.
 
Last edited:
I didn't use the chrono this year but still found a very good shooting load. This year I will be trying a new bullet and probably trying a new barrel, so getting that data may prove useful in the long run in finding the most consistent load. I usually jump my bullets and have had no problems finding reliable accuracy.
 
go to a match and watch...constant tuning and record keeping
2 maybe 3 powders, a known bullet.
start with a simple single string ladder to see velocities and find max
then start shooting 3 or 5 shot groups, then play with depth and neck tension
lots of variables require good records
calm and time
Gotta' like all the suggestions in this post! I know some of the hall of fame SRBR guys have at least three powder choices in the on-range reloading box!
 
I have a specific upper window load combination with my bullet and 133 that I know shoots in either Krieger or Bartlien cut rifled barrels.
After break in, I put that load in and adjust the tuner until the groups tighten up. When
I feel like it is at a .200 or better agging capability, I will adjust the seating depth a little to see what happens.
If a barrel acts finiky and will not shoot that combo at a competitive level, I will fall out of love with it pretty quick.
I shoot VV 133 the majority of the time. The only other powder I fool with is some older 2015BR for when I go out to Phoenix where there is no humidity.

With my 30BR VFS Rifle, I use the same load all the time. I know it works. Any adjustments are done with the tuner.
 
In short range all the experimenting has been done. You know which powder youll use, you know theres no sense in trying to go down 2gr from what shoots and you know youll be between a full jam and in .010 or so. Theres no need in shooting a whole ton of rounds trying something you know wont win, like you go out one day and shoot zeroes with 28.5 of n133 at .015 off the lands theres no need in taking that to a match.
 
Here's the process I use that's proven to work very well on everything from .17's to the .30's. Broken down, it's this way in order of importance:
Step 1: Tune with the powder charge starting from the bottom and going up.
Step 2: Seating depth after powder charge tune is established.
Step 3: Final tune with neck tension

-With a stripped bolt, adjust the seating stem until the rifling marks just disappear on the bullet.
-Measure and record the seating stem length as the 'touch point' for that particular bullet.
-Make the seating stem .030 shorter than the 'touch point'. This establishes a solid jam/seat.
-Use a neck bushing .004 smaller than what the neck measures with a bullet seated.
-With a lower end charge wt., go up in .3-.5 gr. increments (depending on case size).
-Using wind flags and the same POA, shoot 3 shot groups at each weight until you get pressure.
-Select the best 3 shot group and shoot another one to make sure it repeats.
-With that load, shoot 3 shot groups, bumping the seating depth back .003-.005 at a time.
-With the seating depth that shoots smallest, shoot it again to verify it repeats. Record that stem length.
-Now back up the neck tension .001 at a time and pick the best group.
-Shoot a 5 shot group with that load. It should be about 40% larger than your identical 3 shot group.

If everything looks good at that point, I'll load 10-12 and shoot a group to see how stable it is.

As you go along, you'll get a sense of what the barrel likes pretty quickly. From 30-40 rounds is all it normally takes to get a sense of things. But I'm more of a plodder than most and do a fair amount of A-B-A testing, too. Most BR level guns will show good accuracy at multiple charge weights. On a 30BR for example, from the lowest charge until you can't get any more in the case, you'll generally see three good accuracy levels. If the tuneup is good and flat from 34.2 to 34.8 for example, plunk it down at 34.5 and go from there. Nothing good comes from living on the edge...whether that edge is high or low.

If you choose to live on the razors edge, you're gonna' bleed a little. ;)

One thing I do with a load is test it when the winds at our range are from either 3 or 9 o'clock. With a 3 or 9 o'clock flag position and a dead center hold, virtually all of the wind induced vertical is eliminated and what you see 'on target' is how stable the load is across the full value of the wind. Now, not everyone agrees with this concept. And it can certainly be dependent on the features of the range, too. But it makes sense in my brain. :eek:

The target below shot this last May shows this pretty well. The top two groups are hitting the flags as best I could for direction and speed. The bottom two were fired purposely ignoring the wind speed and just concentrating on the flags position. POA on all groups was the center dot. On the lower left group (6 shots in the push), I gave the scope a couple clicks down before firing it. The wind speed was slacking off (wind was from 3 o'clock) and I didn't want to risk shooting out my aiming point.

I do send a few across the chrono just so I know.

In SRBR, accuracy and a solid stable tune up are everything to me. OCW, ladders, ES, SD, OBT, etc. mean a little bit less than zilch. ;)

Just how I approach it..... -Al
YHTiWPYl.jpg
 
Last edited:
I have a specific bullet/load combination with my bullet and 133 that I know shoots. I make a 5/9 dual ogive 6mm 66 grain flat base bullet. It seems pretty easy to tune.
I start into the lands, I will adjust the seating depth a little to see what happens.
I shoot VV 133, about 29.5 gr. - 30 gr
If it goes out of tune, I'll switch to LT32 about 29gr. Usually one of these loads works.
The seating depth test is similar to Tony Boyer. Read his book, it's available on Amazon.com.
The Book of Rifle Accuracy https://a.co/d/b2u2cYT
 

Attachments

  • 20210404_142948-01.jpeg
    20210404_142948-01.jpeg
    234.2 KB · Views: 20
In short range I've never started off the lands (never won a nationals but have won against a lot of guys that have won the nationals!) We mostly start into the lands maybe .009 or so and work our way out .002 at a time, if we don't get the results we are looking for by the time we are out of the lands we go back in deeper. In SHORT RANGE I've never found out of the lands node, that's just me. EDIT: this was with a 6PPC and 6 Grendel, the 30 Major and 30 BR were into the lands much more.
I just start as far in the lands as I can that the case will hold the bullet if I have to unload a loaded round and then work out .003 at a time until 3 consecutive lengths shoot pretty much the same and then I try to find the middle.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
166,296
Messages
2,216,142
Members
79,551
Latest member
PROJO GM
Back
Top