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Tubbs lapping bullets

I had a factory barrel that i was going to replace because it was very rough, so i tried the tubbs lapping system prior, the factory barrel is still on the rifle and still shoots great. 3000 rounds later and it still shoots sub MOA.
CW
 
I bought 2 of Tubb's boxes of throat maintenance, for .264 & .284 several years ago, after talking to him. They are still on the shelf, but I have them if the JB fails me or I get a particular nasty throat. I do think they would be much faster than my scrub & scope method.
 
I have used the Tubb's bullets and dead soft lead w lapping compound.

Tubb's will smooth out a rough barrel, but will also wipe out out your beautifully machined 1.5 degree throat lead. Your lead will be very long and gradual and the touch point will be pushed out. Not saying this ruins the barrel, but you need to be aware of this. If your doing any fire lapping, I think a borescope is required to really know what you are doing.

That said, I do think there are situations where fire lapping an OEM barrel can help, but use dead soft lead bullets imbedded with lapping compound fired at 600-800 fps. I have had real success with this on OEM barrels that were copper piggies.
 
I tried them in a savage .308 that threw fliers and when done it shot well under a half inch. It was a stainless heavy barrel. Would I use them in a hand lapped barrel,yes if that was the last resort to use the barrel for hunting or something other than benchrest or similar.
 
Bartlien and Kreiger void their warranty if their barrels are fire lapped. Others may also.
And Lapua probably doesn't warrant 220 Russian brass once converted to 6PPC. I don't care.
My fine print:
Ultimately, it is customers that find, figure out, or validate all that will be.
So my barrels shoot good only when I make them shoot good.
When my situation leads me to recover performance, with JB, or TMS, coatings, setbacks, etc., I won't try to screw over barrel makers, and I won't care what they think about ANY of my choices otherwise. This, including what barrel makers might think of my chambers, gunbuilder's finishing of my barrels, the loads I run, my cleaning system, or any other matter pertaining to barrels I bought from them -which are now MINE.
 
I went through my reloading book today about the 30-06 vanguard barrel that I fire lapped.

Barrel copper fouled within 3 rounds. Took 2+ days to clean. Horrible vertical stringing from pressure deviation. Groups would exceed 5 inches after the first three rounds and close to a foot by 8 or 10. Over 500 rounds had been fired through the barrel before lapping. POI changed daily.

List of things I did before fire-lapping.
1. New Stock
2. Pillar/Glass/Freefloat
3. New Trigger
4. Cryo treat barreled action (this actually helped a bit)
5. Multiple scopes/rings. Lapped and bedded rings and bases.
6. Extensive load development
7. TIME has got to be worth something. Started in 2007 finished in 2012. That's five years to make this rifle shoot.

None of these things made the gun suitable for taking game as it was absolutely unpredictable every time it was fired. Used the Loaded ammo system (20 rounds 1 and 2 abrasive) and the gun began to "group" for the first time. Purchased the additional bullets with finer abrasive (3, 4, 5).

Here are my notes from November of 2012:

"After shooting the final finish ammo thru -06 and cleaning I shot live ammo to check results and it's a shooter now. It's never shot repeatably till now. Wx Conditions: 5ºF Windy 11-17 gusts. Blowing snow. Fired 18 rounds into 1 1/16". (Never shot a 3 shot group below 2 inches before!) Velocity was consistent during string.

Best 3 shot group .308 (Ha)

Sierra 165 Gameking
Winchester Case Fed 210M 58 grains H4350 2830FPS COL 3.266
Before lapping the best group with this load was 2 3/16"
"

The rifles has about 500 rounds on it since being lapped and just did 5-shots @ 7/8" with the same load as above.
 
I went through my reloading book today about the 30-06 vanguard barrel that I fire lapped.

Barrel copper fouled within 3 rounds. Took 2+ days to clean. Horrible vertical stringing from pressure deviation. Groups would exceed 5 inches after the first three rounds and close to a foot by 8 or 10. Over 500 rounds had been fired through the barrel before lapping. POI changed daily.

List of things I did before fire-lapping.
1. New Stock
2. Pillar/Glass/Freefloat
3. New Trigger
4. Cryo treat barreled action (this actually helped a bit)
5. Multiple scopes/rings. Lapped and bedded rings and bases.
6. Extensive load development
7. TIME has got to be worth something. Started in 2007 finished in 2012. That's five years to make this rifle shoot.

None of these things made the gun suitable for taking game as it was absolutely unpredictable every time it was fired. Used the Loaded ammo system (20 rounds 1 and 2 abrasive) and the gun began to "group" for the first time. Purchased the additional bullets with finer abrasive (3, 4, 5).

Here are my notes from November of 2012:

"After shooting the final finish ammo thru -06 and cleaning I shot live ammo to check results and it's a shooter now. It's never shot repeatably till now. Wx Conditions: 5ºF Windy 11-17 gusts. Blowing snow. Fired 18 rounds into 1 1/16". (Never shot a 3 shot group below 2 inches before!) Velocity was consistent during string.

Best 3 shot group .308 (Ha)

Sierra 165 Gameking
Winchester Case Fed 210M 58 grains H4350 2830FPS COL 3.266
Before lapping the best group with this load was 2 3/16"
"

The rifles has about 500 rounds on it since being lapped and just did 5-shots @ 7/8" with the same load as above.
You really did all that?? The expense of all that if you include travel expense and components to test your treatments could have paid for at least one premium quality barrel. No offense, but sometimes you just have to cut your losses and replace a lousy barrel. Great barrels are cheap.
 
You really did all that?? The expense of all that if you include travel expense and components to test your treatments could have paid for at least one premium quality barrel. No offense, but sometimes you just have to cut your losses and replace a lousy barrel. Great barrels are cheap.
Yeah the lesson learned here can apply to pretty much all economy guns I think. Just spend the money on the quality gun you think you can't afford.
 
I used the FF system in a repro 03A4. It already shot well, but the treatment definitely cleaned the throat up and it cleans up SUPER easy now.

I’d use it again on a factory barrel, for sure. I’d be disappointed if a custom barrel was in a condition that needed this treatment.
 
You really did all that?? The expense of all that if you include travel expense and components to test your treatments could have paid for at least one premium quality barrel. No offense, but sometimes you just have to cut your losses and replace a lousy barrel. Great barrels are cheap.
But the Vanguard had an accuracy guarantee!!!
 
Has anyone used these? If so how was the results? Was it worth the time and money? Noticeableresults, gains in accuracy or velocity?
Thank you Colby
I ordered some for a Marlin 336 that was fouling real bad. After reading excellent reviews, I was extremely excited to try them. First order showed up from MidwayUSA in a package that looked like it had been threw WW2, needless to say the bullets were scattered all over the place and I could not tell what grit was what. Called Midway and notified them, they immediately shipped out a new one, sadly it showed up in worse condition. I sent it back for a refund and gave up on it.
 
Everyone is talking about barrels which copper badly because they are too rough, but what about barrels which copper badly because they are too smooth? I have one new barrel nicknamed the Copper Mine as it makes so much copper. Using a bore scope it is the smoothest looking barrel I have. A few others have recently found similar things. With nothing to lose, some have relapped the barrels themselves while I will likely try some TMS bullets and see how it goes. Otherwise it will just remain as a fire form barrel with moly bullets.
 
Everyone is talking about barrels which copper badly because they are too rough, but what about barrels which copper badly because they are too smooth? I have one new barrel nicknamed the Copper Mine as it makes so much copper. Using a bore scope it is the smoothest looking barrel I have. A few others have recently found similar things. With nothing to lose, some have relapped the barrels themselves while I will likely try some TMS bullets and see how it goes. Otherwise it will just remain as a fire form barrel with moly bullets.

This is what happened to my friend who used the bullets in a 300WM Sendero. It was a copper lined barrel.
 
RDavies, I agree, too smooth is not good. True story:

At BR match a friend said his barrel was fouling like a pig. I scoped it. Most copper I had ever seen. It was so bad there was a line of ppl wanting to look. A fellow competitor offered to buy the mineral rights to the barrel.

A year later, we are shooting the East West, same guy comes and wants to borrow my scope. Says after three shots his gun won’t shoot. He cleans it and asks me to take a look. Couldn’t believe my eye! It looked like a mirror in there. He said after his previous copper problems he started using Iosso every time he cleaned.

Lesson learned - too smooth is bad.
 
Those guys probably do not mess with 3rd rate barrels other than to toss them in the trash.
It is pretty common for cast bullet shooters to fire lap rough barrels with fine abrasives and cast bullets. If you have a proven rough fouling bore what are a few shots going to hurt?
I have a couple of those Marlin Microgroove barrels that will need fire lapping or 500 jacket bullets to smooth out the tool marks.
You guys that only use hot shot barrels don't seem to know how to deal with ordinary factory barrels other than the trash can. There are not many other choices with really old heirlooms and military rifles.


CRINGING- What Jack Sutton, John Krieger, Dan Lilja, Tim North, and Frank Green do when they read threads like this.
 
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