Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
Im just going to back out of this thread. I have more questions than answers and seems like I have a hard time not getting in pissing matches. So I'll kick back and hopefully I can learn something.
6BRA Ladder Test with/wo Tuner
- Thread starter BartsBullets
- Start date
A few years ago I was interested in tuners. I searched for days on end reading everything I could. I ran across a detailed article where a guy took a match winning 22 and many thousand rounds of ammo. I believe it was Ely red and all the same lot.
He took 3 different tuners of the top 3 in rimfire. He made a very detailed log of it. He shot if at 50 feet indoors in an air conditioned range. After reading what I read on his results I decided I wasn't interested in a tuner. Even though the the temp and humidity was controlled the tuners all needed a different setting almost every day. Some days it was a lot and some days only a little.
I just thought in 1000 yard BR where you only get one chance to make a shootoff and if you go the wrong way, it would kill you. I can tune with powder and it stays the same all year. Matt
He took 3 different tuners of the top 3 in rimfire. He made a very detailed log of it. He shot if at 50 feet indoors in an air conditioned range. After reading what I read on his results I decided I wasn't interested in a tuner. Even though the the temp and humidity was controlled the tuners all needed a different setting almost every day. Some days it was a lot and some days only a little.
I just thought in 1000 yard BR where you only get one chance to make a shootoff and if you go the wrong way, it would kill you. I can tune with powder and it stays the same all year. Matt
group therapy
Gold $$ Contributor
I totally agree !!!!Wow, thread started off interesting and then went to @%#@
Let’s see if we can get this back on track. As stated before, Alex said he’d like to see a ladder shot at 100 yards with and without a tuner. So that’s all this was. To compare the two different ladders to each other, one with tuner, one without. Not trying unlock the mysteries of tuning at 100 yards for 1000. Not debating if tuners Work or don’t Work.
I think Alex saw less vertical displacement then what he expected with the tuner on the barrel. When I study the two targets I see what I like to see with the tuner on the barrel. Which is LESS vertical displacement. I want the bullet to print on the same spot over a large range of different loads. The target that was shot with the tuner the point of impact barely moved from 30 to 31.6 grains. For me that’s optimum!
As far as tuners go I’ve tried lots of them. The Ezell tuner though heavy, has been the easiest and most repeatable tuner that I’ve used. I have them on my short and long range guns.
Let us debate and talk about this with an open mind. There are different methods that can get you to the same spot.
Bart
I think Alex saw less vertical displacement then what he expected with the tuner on the barrel. When I study the two targets I see what I like to see with the tuner on the barrel. Which is LESS vertical displacement. I want the bullet to print on the same spot over a large range of different loads. The target that was shot with the tuner the point of impact barely moved from 30 to 31.6 grains. For me that’s optimum!
As far as tuners go I’ve tried lots of them. The Ezell tuner though heavy, has been the easiest and most repeatable tuner that I’ve used. I have them on my short and long range guns.
Let us debate and talk about this with an open mind. There are different methods that can get you to the same spot.
Bart
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I would love to see this, but for some it seems to be (unfortunately) impossible. dedogs
Feel free to discuss all you want. I'll do my best to stay out of it.
My issue with what I saw last night is simple. There is simply a lot of confusion and misinformation out there about tuners. We have come a long way and I wish there was a way to continue to build upon what we know and have learned. I agree that there is still a fair amount to be learned about HOW tuners do what they do. Interjecting disproven theories is a step backward that only adds to the confusion when people read posts like that. Those posts are here forever.
I hope that we can keep that in mind as this thread continues. --Mike Ezell
My issue with what I saw last night is simple. There is simply a lot of confusion and misinformation out there about tuners. We have come a long way and I wish there was a way to continue to build upon what we know and have learned. I agree that there is still a fair amount to be learned about HOW tuners do what they do. Interjecting disproven theories is a step backward that only adds to the confusion when people read posts like that. Those posts are here forever.
I hope that we can keep that in mind as this thread continues. --Mike Ezell
dmoran
Donovan Moran
Bart -
Based from what you said, can't help but think you're looking at group size or something other then actual vertical dispersion. After not seeing what your seeing, with my computer using pixels converted to inches, I measured each of your target groups for vertical dispersion:
Myself rely heavily on vertical dispersion as my key assessment for LR tuning/development. From which when I study the two targets, I see significantly less vertical dispersion from 30.0 to 30.6 with the Tuner Off. Which mathematically yields an average of 22% less vertical from 30.0 to 30.6 (a significant difference - IMO).
Donovan
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Donovan
I’m looking at where the group forms /impacts. Not the actual vertical in the groups. The groups with the tuner stayed pretty close to to the horizon line all the way across. For the way I tune that’s a positive.
We will see. It think it could be possible to come up with a technique that a shooter could tune at 100 for a 1000.
Bart
TZaun
Gold $$ Contributor
Donovan, on your chart, why don't some of those have a near zero dispersion? Also, is it easy enough to throw together a chart using the average group height above or below the POA? I believe that's what Bart is looking at? That's also what I thought Alex was referring to when he looks for the sine wave? Or is he strictly looking at vertical dispersion?
What variables can we change and then ask Bart to reshoot the test. Seems like a great opportunity with a l own shooter to possibly learn something. Needs to be easy to change and change by a large value. Little changes don't tell us much. This could be really helpful.
Please help me get this back on the rails.
Please help me get this back on the rails.
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
I agree.
Which is why you can see my confusion by the target results and why I brought this up. Donvans chart makes it a little easier to read. But in my eye, the node spacing (frequency) is unchanged and the height (amplitude) did the opposite of what is expected.
dmoran
Donovan Moran
@flamethrower -
I measured from the highest point of a bullet(s) hole to the lowest, vertically. So the "near zero" would be around .243-ish with my pixel conversions.
Donovan
Edit later:
Made a new chart and edited my Post #72 above, subtracting bullet diameter (.243) from all the gross measurements that I had listed/charted. Should have done that originally, and Thank you for pointing it out.
I measured from the highest point of a bullet(s) hole to the lowest, vertically. So the "near zero" would be around .243-ish with my pixel conversions.
Donovan
Edit later:
Made a new chart and edited my Post #72 above, subtracting bullet diameter (.243) from all the gross measurements that I had listed/charted. Should have done that originally, and Thank you for pointing it out.
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CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
Re-looked at the pictures of the original groups with/without tuner. Something obvious to me does not seem to be discussed here. Or, I'm too stupid to understand.
With my tuner Dashers I set the tuner to one random position so there's that weight at the muzzle. Then I try to find some kind of load that is reasonable. This would or could be done in a ladder test. Obviously, with no tuner, that's it. No more tuning except for tweaking the seating depth. With a tuner, you TUNE it.
I failed to see where a single load showed changes when the tuner was turned or changed. From experience I move my tuners around and find a defined change in both group size and impact point. In this whole discussion I did not find a single mention of vertical or horizontal movement with tuner changes. Just seems like the tuner is on the barrel but is not adjusted in any of this testing.
As an aside that 5-shot ladder test I showed earlier in this topic got me IBS first place LG high score of 192 today. Would have been higher if I had made a proper change from the sighter that is 28 yards behind the targets. No tuner on my new Wheeler BRA but I do have a modified Harrell's brake added by another local gunsmith. The working load, with that weight on the end, is probably the same as ones Alex builds that are used without any weight from a brake.
With my tuner Dashers I set the tuner to one random position so there's that weight at the muzzle. Then I try to find some kind of load that is reasonable. This would or could be done in a ladder test. Obviously, with no tuner, that's it. No more tuning except for tweaking the seating depth. With a tuner, you TUNE it.
I failed to see where a single load showed changes when the tuner was turned or changed. From experience I move my tuners around and find a defined change in both group size and impact point. In this whole discussion I did not find a single mention of vertical or horizontal movement with tuner changes. Just seems like the tuner is on the barrel but is not adjusted in any of this testing.
As an aside that 5-shot ladder test I showed earlier in this topic got me IBS first place LG high score of 192 today. Would have been higher if I had made a proper change from the sighter that is 28 yards behind the targets. No tuner on my new Wheeler BRA but I do have a modified Harrell's brake added by another local gunsmith. The working load, with that weight on the end, is probably the same as ones Alex builds that are used without any weight from a brake.
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Congratulations! How were your groups?
dmoran
Donovan Moran
@flamethrower
Measured with my computer (pixels converted to inches) each Group Center vertically to the horizontal aiming lines of Bart's targets, and charted it like you asked:
From which, I personally see very little significance between the tuner On to Off the barrel, just that with the tuner Off is not as abrupt of a trend to all the increments as when its On.
Donovan
Measured with my computer (pixels converted to inches) each Group Center vertically to the horizontal aiming lines of Bart's targets, and charted it like you asked:
From which, I personally see very little significance between the tuner On to Off the barrel, just that with the tuner Off is not as abrupt of a trend to all the increments as when its On.
Donovan
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I am in agreement with Tom in his understanding of amplitude
The amplitude of wave should change from hanging extra ounces of tuner off the end of the barrel so instead of having high peaks we would have shallower peak and valleys from the same amount of energy. this seems apparent in the bullet impact in the turner test as almost the entire string falls on or below the line compared to the non tuner test
Based on the tuner target i would select 30.6 over 31.6 however the 31.6 on the tuner would need to be re-tested as the speed is the same as the 31.4. it is also lower then the no tuner speed by 8fps which is the largest low spread between all of the tuner no tuner velocities
I would further re-test 3rd time the 30.8 to confirm the size of the window for 30.6, in both 30.8 samples the ES is above 10 yet the two preceding and the one after the 30.8 have ESs under 4.
What i expected but didn't materialize see Dmoran vert chart is that there is more vertical in the tuner loads then the non turner (free flowing barrel) as a whole.
My I suggest running the test again with the turner 1 full turn further out.
What i expect is it will lower the groups further below the line and subsequently reduce vertical to display tighter groups compared to the non turner groups.
All the best
Trevor
The amplitude of wave should change from hanging extra ounces of tuner off the end of the barrel so instead of having high peaks we would have shallower peak and valleys from the same amount of energy. this seems apparent in the bullet impact in the turner test as almost the entire string falls on or below the line compared to the non tuner test
Based on the tuner target i would select 30.6 over 31.6 however the 31.6 on the tuner would need to be re-tested as the speed is the same as the 31.4. it is also lower then the no tuner speed by 8fps which is the largest low spread between all of the tuner no tuner velocities
I would further re-test 3rd time the 30.8 to confirm the size of the window for 30.6, in both 30.8 samples the ES is above 10 yet the two preceding and the one after the 30.8 have ESs under 4.
What i expected but didn't materialize see Dmoran vert chart is that there is more vertical in the tuner loads then the non turner (free flowing barrel) as a whole.
My I suggest running the test again with the turner 1 full turn further out.
What i expect is it will lower the groups further below the line and subsequently reduce vertical to display tighter groups compared to the non turner groups.
All the best
Trevor
CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
Shot for score. If I could see an impact, I moved to put it center. When the first shot was high ( cause I had no experience with this rifle moving in 28 yards for score) I could have just shot the rest of the shots out. I shoot for score and moved the impact down. All groups except that first one were under 3". Liked what I saw and showed potential if I can get time to tune for the next IBS shoot.
As for my Dasher with tuner... I should have tuned the tuner (hi hi!). Sucked in HG with it.
Now back to our featured argument about amplitude with/without tuner.
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