Ruining cases by Annealing
- Thread starter bsekf
- Start date
LDS,
If you check a curve of softening vs temp and time you will see the curve is linear. That means you cannot increase hardness by any heating! For that to happen, the curve would have to be extremely non-linear and dip down from rest then rising to a desired hardness with more time.
If you check a curve of softening vs temp and time you will see the curve is linear. That means you cannot increase hardness by any heating! For that to happen, the curve would have to be extremely non-linear and dip down from rest then rising to a desired hardness with more time.
JSH
Gold $$ Contributor
I am no metallurgist by any means. I did pay attention to what one old gentleman showed and told me.
He had used an automated annealer a little and had fine tuned it some.
He told me the way he had done it for years and years was with his bare fingers without a problem. Propane torch, blue flame pointing up. Roll the case in between your thumb and index finger, case mouth up. He always dropped his into a bucket of water, today some say it does nothing to the anneal. His method he swore you would drop the case before you ruined one.
Takes more time than most want to fool with.
He had used an automated annealer a little and had fine tuned it some.
He told me the way he had done it for years and years was with his bare fingers without a problem. Propane torch, blue flame pointing up. Roll the case in between your thumb and index finger, case mouth up. He always dropped his into a bucket of water, today some say it does nothing to the anneal. His method he swore you would drop the case before you ruined one.
Takes more time than most want to fool with.
Brass is only hardened by cold working it.
Please don't take my word for it though.
Just consult with every known reference in the materials engineering universe.
Please don't take my word for it though.
Just consult with every known reference in the materials engineering universe.
Your test is not nearly thorough and complete.
You can do all of that and think you have an answer.
Then you can FL size your cases and find that all the necks accordion and collapse.
Tempilaq tells you nothing about what will happen in the sizing die.
You can do all of that and think you have an answer.
Then you can FL size your cases and find that all the necks accordion and collapse.
Tempilaq tells you nothing about what will happen in the sizing die.
I did some limited testing using the torch and socket method . All these cases have 750* tempilaq inside the necks and 450* just below the shoulders .
I found that you can over anneal in the fact I did not have much bullet hold after over heating the necks well past 750* . I could manually push the bullet deeper into the case with minimal pressure by pushing the tip into my bench . If you single feed or from a mag on a bolt gun that may not be to bad . How ever if using an auto loader , that light bullet hold could result in bullet set back upon chambering . Maybe during recoil with the bigger cartridges .
Because of that conclusion I've also concluded that it's almost impossible to over heat the head of a case if only heating the neck and shoulder .
I ran this test by applying 750* temp indicator just below the shoulder and a 450* indicator at the head of the case . This was done on 223 and 308 cases .
As you can see most of the cases did not reach a high enough temperature to melt the 450* tempilaq at the head . All these cases were heated to the point of melting the 750* below the shoulder which resulted in all the necks glowing bright red for seconds ( at least two ) . After this test I concluded that heat migration is not an issue if the heat source is applied correctly to the neck and shoulder area only . When done correctly if your heads heat up enough to ruin the brass your necks were well over 1200* ruining the case anyways .
No. It does not harden. But it won’t lessen the seating force either.
Heating to below the critical temperature only relieves the magority of the stress. It does nothing to reduce the spring temper and stiffness associated with that. So the seating force will be the same.
In order to reduce these seating forces, the brass must reach critical temperature and remain there for sufficient time. This temperature and time are dependent on the amount of cold work and the type of cold work. More cold work the lower the critical temperature. Also more cold work the finer the grain structure you get in the rechrystallization process. If you hold the temperature high enough and long enough, these grains start to merge. That is the “dead soft” “no neck tension” state. There isn’t enough grain boundaries to develop tension.
With these fancy machines, most of them get to critical temp for a second or two and then the heat source is removed and the brass is air cooled. The refining process then tapers off until it stops when the temperature no longer supports it. No magic there. Whether it is better and more controllable than a torch and cases standing in water... is up to the user. But I can buy a lot of brass for the price of an amp machine. I already own an old cake pan and a torch. Neither is better. But me is less expensive.
What are you talking about ? I don't remember saying anything about how , when or if I sized the cases . So how can you conclude my test shows nothing ?
FWIW that isn't the only testing I did . I how ever did FL size those cases that were moderately over annealed as well as cases annealed to the correct temperature . They sized just fine , how else could I have seated the bullets ? You don't size your cases then anneal , or at least I don't . I did not size the cases I tried to get the heat to migrate to the head . There was no reason to because
1) That was not the intent of the test . It was just to find out if the heat would actually migrate to the head and reach a temperature that would soften the head if the heat source was only applied to the neck and shoulder .
2) The fact my test already showed I could anneal the necks to the point there was relatively low bullet hold by just moderately over annealing the necks . It was reasonable to assume the necks were at least as soft if not more so if severely over heated .
Correct , it only allows you to have consistent and repeatable results to draw conclusions from .
Why don't you show me/us the methods and results of your testing for comparison ?
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searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
Aside from neck tension capabilities being altered significantly, I found (the hard way - as usual) that over-annealing semi-auto brass brings on far more drawbacks. In my early days of annealing (I think I was 14?) I WAY over did some .223 brass and the necks would actually bend an/or partially collapse after being stripped off the mag. I ran into that again to a much lesser degree not too long ago, My accuracy had really fallen off with a lot of brass. I loaded a few dummy rounds, then checked them for run-out after ejecting them. WOW! No wonder. The necks weren't strong enough to remain straight and true through the loading process - which in semi's such as AR-15's - is tough to do anyway - especially with long bullets. The necks were able to provide adequate neck tension so, if not for the accuracy loss, I would likely not have checked the run-out after loading to find this problem.
Thank you Searcher , there's at least one real life confirmation that shows my test were accurate .
haha yeah based on how hot you get the case . It's not like each machine has a time it takes to anneal any case at any torch setting with any type of gas used . Yes they are time driven but that's just cus .
FWIW I'm not trying to make things difficult . I did these test to understand what was going on when annealing . It got confusing after awhile hearing so many people say so many different things about annealing . I figured instead of trusting one of many opinions I'd just test this stuff my self .
My test showed a propane torch turned down a bit will give more consistent results as far as the brass consistently reaching the same temp each time . I tested a propane torch at multiple settings ( different intensities of flame/heat ) and compared that to using a MAPP gas torch .
All these photos below were taken the moment the 750* temp indicator melted inside the necks
This flame took about 7 or 8 seconds to melt the 750* temp indicator inside the neck . I got lucky and caught the 450* on the outside melting at the same time .
This flame took just over 5sec to do the same .
Will this MAPP gas flame only takes 4secs
As you can see your timing is proportional to the heat of the flame
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I have annealed a lot more steel than I have brass and with steel there is a critical temperature plus a time requirement, it also has to be in an "atmosphere". If you do not get it to the temp it does not matter how long you hold it at a less then critical temp, it will not change. I expect brass to do the same thing, but I don't know. Brass is different than steel, no atmosphere required...it doesn't harden if quenched, etc. I would expect that if you don't get brass to the point it changes then it will not change either.
Everyone has an annealing story, I'll try to keep it short....here is mine. 1990 I built two rifles both 30 caliber one had a HS stock and a McMillan barrel, the other had a McMillan stock and a Krieger barrel. Both were very accurate rifles for non-benchrest guns. Both would easily shoot 1/2 minute and they would do it with just about any powder and bullet combo if carefully reloaded. Now, I didn't have nowhere near the support gear I have today. I wasn't shooting these rifles off of a Sinclair rest, wasn't worrying with bullet runout, I did size to .001" under chamber size and I kept the barrels reasonably clean.
One rifle was a 308 and I was given a bucket full of Lake City 57 and 58 brass. It was so hard that the expander ball would chirp and pull very hard thru the necks. None of these cases split but they had to be the hardest I have ever loaded...still the rifle shot 1/2 minute at least and most of the time 5 shots at 100 was a ragged hole.
Worried about how hard the cases were and remembering reading about annealing in a reloading book I had I went ahead and tried it. Well, the SD/ES numbers were very favorable, unfortunately the groups were not. I just couldn't believe annealing the cases so they had soft necks and lighter tension could do this. I chased this ghost for many years. Tony Boyer, in his book comments on neck tension and he says he wants all he can get...he says he wants the bullets to seat hard into the necks for best accuracy.
I don't know how all this works and I am still not totally convinced I am on the right track with tighter neck tension, but I am seeing results that appear so. I really wish I had kept some of that rock hard Lake City 58 brass...I did keep one of the rifles though. For the purpose of testing I wish I knew how to harden brass!!
"......when I know in advance I have an error in reloading" Are you sure????
In the testing , only trying to understand how it works and what works using the torch and socket method .
As far as why I anneal . To promote consistent bullet hold/release and to extend case life .
To be clear these posts are about what the OP asked about . I'm not promoting anything or discounting anything . I'm just posting the results of some testing I did a few years ago . When those test are challenged , I explained a little more in detail as to what I did . I have all kinds of notes and photos on this subject . but so far I've been going off memory .
I personally like to test things before commenting how they work . Rather then regurgitate what I've read . This is not the case 100% of the time
but is something I try to do
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Just trying to track all this stuff & keep up.
Of interest is Mg's observation of higher temps inside neck than outside.
MAPP gas burns hotter than propane. Mg's 2nd post showed the MAPP flame so close enough to the neck the gas was not entirely consumed making the flame/brass contact to be in a reduction stage; in the 1st shot the propane flame was further away. MAPP gas is super hot and will toast brass faster than the adequately hot burning propane. This would support use of some device having a fixed distance between brass and flame tip and uniform heating and consistent timing.
In shots 2 & 3, the surface of the brass was not at the hottest part of the flame. The 1st shot (propane) was almost at the right position. The timing might be affected by the position of the brass and flame state, like inside the hottest part of the flame. But heat is heat & the temps were measured @ 450 & 750 and only 1 + second separated the two tests. The 2nd & 3rd (propane?) post shows what I think is secondary combustion of unburned gas shown by orange flame starting at the leading edge of the neck top. Increasing the flow of gas might be negated by positioning the brass inside the hottest part of the flame. Possibly, the inside 750 MAPP temp might occur 2 seconds before the propane temp if the brass surface was at the flame tip.
I shared searchers misfortune when I over toasted .204 R necks and my efforts destroyed a bunch of brass, sort of like searcher's. My thoughts are that small cartridges with narrow necks don't need as much torch time to anneal.
Looking at the Accurate Shooter site I found a bulletin that described testing brass spring back using vise grip pliers and a caliper. My .204 brass did not recover the .002-.003 - like dead soft. I might have been able to work-harden them but instead tossed that batch. Bullets were sort of stuck in plastic like necks. I think I will save the MAPP gas for sweating copper pipe joints.
Of interest is Mg's observation of higher temps inside neck than outside.
MAPP gas burns hotter than propane. Mg's 2nd post showed the MAPP flame so close enough to the neck the gas was not entirely consumed making the flame/brass contact to be in a reduction stage; in the 1st shot the propane flame was further away. MAPP gas is super hot and will toast brass faster than the adequately hot burning propane. This would support use of some device having a fixed distance between brass and flame tip and uniform heating and consistent timing.
In shots 2 & 3, the surface of the brass was not at the hottest part of the flame. The 1st shot (propane) was almost at the right position. The timing might be affected by the position of the brass and flame state, like inside the hottest part of the flame. But heat is heat & the temps were measured @ 450 & 750 and only 1 + second separated the two tests. The 2nd & 3rd (propane?) post shows what I think is secondary combustion of unburned gas shown by orange flame starting at the leading edge of the neck top. Increasing the flow of gas might be negated by positioning the brass inside the hottest part of the flame. Possibly, the inside 750 MAPP temp might occur 2 seconds before the propane temp if the brass surface was at the flame tip.
I shared searchers misfortune when I over toasted .204 R necks and my efforts destroyed a bunch of brass, sort of like searcher's. My thoughts are that small cartridges with narrow necks don't need as much torch time to anneal.
Looking at the Accurate Shooter site I found a bulletin that described testing brass spring back using vise grip pliers and a caliper. My .204 brass did not recover the .002-.003 - like dead soft. I might have been able to work-harden them but instead tossed that batch. Bullets were sort of stuck in plastic like necks. I think I will save the MAPP gas for sweating copper pipe joints.
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Larry,as has been alluded to, it's my understanding that until brass is brought to the right temperature and duration..nothing happens.
I also believe that many people over anneal in search of that pretty blue Lapua ring.
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Fyrewall , good observation . The one thing that was difficult with these test was the temperature indicator on the outside of the cases just below the shoulder and keeping the flame off of it . That’s why the flames were placed a little high or a little off from optimal position that was to keep them away from the temperature indicator . That MAPP gass was way hot and very hard to keep off the temp indicator. Yet it still heated the cases really fast .
There are many observations i noticed doing these test that are off topic for the thread .
I agree that can affect the timing but I don’t believe it would’ve been as much a second or two from the position of each flame . so I believe the those numbers are accurate enough for the purposes of this discussion .
There are many observations i noticed doing these test that are off topic for the thread .
I agree that can affect the timing but I don’t believe it would’ve been as much a second or two from the position of each flame . so I believe the those numbers are accurate enough for the purposes of this discussion .
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First let me say of all the propane testing I've done as well as annealing in general . The orange flame only occurs right around the brass hitting 750* or above . The MAPP gas flame has orange in it from the get go and seems to get more orange as it heats up the case .
I've talked with a few people about that orange flame . Right now there are two thoughts on that and I think they both can be right .
1) The carbon and or fouling from inside the neck burning off resulting in the discolored flame . I've not retested this after buying my SS wet tumbler . If I were to have very clean cases that may not happen .
2) The flame is showing the zinc breaking down at the edges of the mouth since it melts at 782* and there's some stuff going on way above my pay grade that I could not explain . I was told what may be going on but don't remember enough to even try to repeat it .
So those have been my working theories to date . I don't believe it's unburned gas setting off .
Wow every pic i seen looks over annealed to me...First of all you have to ask why are you annealing. brass is hard and splitting necks and shoulders. or just to gain some neck grip..I use the bench source. on hard brass that is splitting requires more time than what i call a maintenance anneal which is something i do every firing if using a bushing die and want to maintain a hard bullet grip. I would never want to clean that tempilaq heat paint out of them case necks. with the bench source i use a set up case to set it up for temp and time but the time gives the temp..it's not long 1.5 sec or so in the flame and your done. most of the time you don't even see discoloration on the case. but bullet seating says we have hard grip. so we did something...Now a hard case that was splitting will require more time but not much..I use the 750 deg F on inside the neck and 450 deg F on the case body to get my set up then i run my cases threw. It take some experience from experimenting on some brass to get the hang of it and i use the same set up cases just repaint them set it up and then run my brass through..It seems to work well but there is always that doubt will this give me what i want. So far it seems to. i bought the bench source because i tried annealing once and over annealed some cases that made the heads soft and it was bad.. dangerous . so far with bench source even dasher brass i never hit 450 deg F more than half way down the case....Very happy with it..But annealing is kind of like black magic..
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