New .224 Matchking...

[Road_Clam]

A 90 gr bullet at 2800 fps from a .223 casing ? Probably one and done on your brass. I'm loading the 80 gr Nosler CC to 24.5 gr of Varget and I have to be very conscious of a nice tight primer pocket fit or else I will see combustion blowby etching of my bolt face. I'm also using CCI #41 primers.

 

[XTR]

A 90 gr bullet at 2800 fps from a .223 casing ? Probably one and done on your brass. I'm loading the 80 gr Nosler CC to 24.5 gr of Varget and I have to be very conscious of a nice tight primer pocket fit or else I will see combustion blowby etching of my bolt face. I'm also using CCI #41 primers.

@Road_Clam there are a whole lot of F-TR shooters who shoot the 90VLD in mid range matches who run them at about 2800 with great success and the brass will last half a dozen loads. The load almost everyone runs is right at 24.3 ±.2gr Varget in a 30" barrel. Those running running them a little higher (2850+) with H4895 or Varget are seeing less brass life. The key is a .169 or longer freebore. Gets the bullet out of the case.

There are a lot of mid range F-TR shooters out there that have started running the rat rifles, and they are hard to beat.

 

[284winner]

Wonder if a monster capacity .224 would spin this bullet from a 1:9?
Sure, it'd go against most conventional wisdom on stability factors & calculators, but would be fun to try! Nothing ventured, nothing gained...

Imagine the ballistics of that bullet with a 35-3600 fps launch speed

When are these posta hit the shelves?

I knew I'd see you chime in on this new bullet for your Redline. If anything would stabilize it in a 9 twist, that would be it. Hell I'm wondering if my 8 twist can get them flying straight at 22-250 Ackley speeds?

 

[Geno C]

I knew I'd see you chime in on this new bullet for your Redline. If anything would stabilize it in a 9 twist, that would be it. Hell I'm wondering if my 8 twist can get them flying straight at 22-250 Ackley speeds?

I played with the stability calculator using the 90 vld and I don't see a 1-9 stabilizing these. I would bet on anything slower than 7.5 even at 22-250ai/22-47L speeds... I have a 1-9 that I could test when they come out though

I do all my calculations at 0 degrees and sea level because I shoot in the weather some times. Of course higher elevations and temps will but you some stability

 

[284winner]

I played with the stability calculator using the 90 vld and I don't see a 1-9 stabilizing these. I would bet on anything slower than 7.5 even at 22-250ai/22-47L speeds... I have a 1-9 that I could test when they come out though

I do all my calculations at 0 degrees and sea level because I shoot in the weather some times. Of course higher elevations and temps will but you some stability

Ya I played with the calculator too. It's on the edge of zero stability. Even at 4000 fps with a 9 twist and that 95 grain 224 bullet, the stability factor is under .9. No way any 9twist will stabilize it. In fact I don't think an 8 will do it either.

 

[JBT47]

I know that the 90gr VLD will not stabilize in a true 1-8” twist in a .22-250 loaded hot. So I can’t imagine this bullet being stable in a 8 twist...even at .22-250 AI or .22-243 velocities.

 

[Geno C]

Ya I played with the calculator too. It's on the edge of zero stability. Even at 4000 fps with a 9 twist and that 95 grain 224 bullet, the stability factor is under .9. No way any 9twist will stabilize it. In fact I don't think an 8 will do it either.

I'm with you on this. 1-7.25 would be my limit if I were buying a barrel to shoot this bullet with a larger case. 1-6.5 in a 223

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

I may need to change my .22 barrel on order at Bartleins' to a 1:750" gain to 1:675". I was thinking the 90gr Berger in a 22-284 project this spring.

 

[Wingnut00]

I may need to change my .22 barrel on order at Bartleins' to a 1:750" gain to 1:675". I was thinking the 90gr Berger in a 22-284 project this spring.

I want to know how your project turns out. Keep me posted please. Thanks

 

[284winner]

I may need to change my .22 barrel on order at Bartleins' to a 1:750" gain to 1:675". I was thinking the 90gr Berger in a 22-284 project this spring.

I think with a cartridge that fast, caution is the key word on the twist/velocity combination. I think a 7 twist may be too fast but an 8, not enough. It will be in between but I think I'd almost error on the side of slower. I played with the stability calculator and I know it's not a fool proof calculator but it seemed that the speed definitely made things alot more equal. Like Fredo said, " I'd hate to spend all the time and money on a project and have it fail from an error in barrel twist, speed, rpm calculation". Sure would hate for the jackets to fail.

 

[USMCDOC]

A 90 gr bullet at 2800 fps from a .223 casing ? Probably one and done on your brass. I'm loading the 80 gr Nosler CC to 24.5 gr of Varget and I have to be very conscious of a nice tight primer pocket fit or else I will see combustion blowby etching of my bolt face. I'm also using CCI #41 primers.

I used to run them at 2950 and yes i would get more than one reload out of the brass.. about 3 was it. but i wasn't running tight chamber either..

 

[fredo]

John, truthfully, I haven't even run any ballistic #s to see what MV would be required to push that 95 fast enough to beat an 80 @ 37-3800. For my purposes wth the .220Redline, it might not even be worth the bother? I won't suffer a short range ballistic penalty just to to throw a heavier pill that might fly better waaaaay down range & beyond intended yardage. Same goes for any cartridge...

But, if any 1:9 twist would have a shot, the Redline would have the horsepower to potentially overcome "recommended twist". Strange & wonderful things might happen when there's nearly 25 grains more case capacity than a .22-250AI to lean on!

I do know of some 'hotrods' that run bullets which shouldn't be "stable", yet do just fine. Heck, my friend's .243 Catbird was a 1:14twist, and it spun 85gr Sierras into bugholes...go figure?!? And what about a 1:12 twist. 22-243AI shooting 69-70s? That ain't posta happen, either...

That's not to discount stability calculators across the board, rather to suggest exceptions in "extreme" cases. And Sierras seem to have thicker new jackets than VLDs, which bodes well that this new 95 might survive the ride to target. It won't take but 5-10rds to see if they'll poke a round hole.
Sometimes ya never know until ya know!

When they hit the market, I'll grab a box. Won't need more than 10 to try. So, if anyone with a "hotrod" .224 wants to try this new 95, pm me your address, and I'll throw 10 in the mail to ya to try in yours...

 

[284winner]

John, truthfully, I haven't even run any ballistic #s to see what MV would be required to push that 95 fast enough to beat an 80 @ 37-3800. For my purposes wth the .220Redline, it might not even be worth the bother? I won't suffer a short range ballistic penalty just to to throw a heavier pill that might fly better waaaaay down range & beyond intended yardage. Same goes for any cartridge...

But, if any 1:9 twist would have a shot, the Redline would have the horsepower to potentially overcome "recommended twist". Strange & wonderful things might happen when there's nearly 25 grains more case capacity than a .22-250AI to lean on!

I do know of some 'hotrods' that run bullets which shouldn't be "stable", yet do just fine. Heck, my friend's .243 Catbird was a 1:14twist, and it spun 85gr Sierras into bugholes...go figure?!? And what about a 1:12 twist. 22-243AI shooting 69-70s? That ain't posta happen, either...

That's not to discount stability calculators across the board, rather to suggest exceptions in "extreme" cases. And Sierras seem to have thicker new jackets than VLDs, which bodes well that this new 95 might survive the ride to target. It won't take but 5-10rds to see if they'll poke a round hole.
Sometimes ya never know until ya know!

When they hit the market, I'll grab a box. Won't need more than 10 to try. So, if anyone with a "hotrod" .224 wants to try this new 95, pm me your address, and I'll throw 10 in the mail to ya to try in yours...

Ya the stability calculators are not gospel. I've had opposite results when running slower twist barrels than recommended. It's just a place to start in my opinion. I'm sure it's 90% accurate but like you said, that extra velocity sometimes can throw a wrench in that calculator program.

 

[17VLD]

Ya the stability calculators are not gospel. I've had opposite results when running slower twist barrels than recommended. It's just a place to start in my opinion. I'm sure it's 90% accurate but like you said, that extra velocity sometimes can throw a wrench in that calculator program.

I never would have thought that I could have shot the 50 grain Berger out of my 12 twist 20BR,but it shot nicely at my 500 yard target.It just goes to show you that sometimes you have to try and see for yourself.Of course living at 6202 elevation may have helped too.
Matt

 

[6xcshooter]

22-243 might just be the perfect cartridge for this 95gr bullet.

 

[JBT47]

A gain twist barrel from say 7.5 to 6.5 or 6.75” twist may help with bullet failure and still impart the necessary twist. At least that is my wishful thinking because if my 7 twist Broughton gives me problems in the .22 Creedmoor I am about to build then I will try a gain twist

 

[Heman]

In my 223 Palma rifle I'm runing the 90gr VLDs molly coated around 2880 in LC12 brass. Brass has 2 firings on it and primer pockets are still tight. Last fullbore match vertical was around 1/2-3/4 of our X ring. Personally I'm not sure the 95gr Sierra is the way to go. Nosler has a 85gr RDF that intrigues me more as it is going to fly flatter and be pushed a little faster. I know in the 308 gun I'm not so sure the 168 Hyb isn't the better bullet than the 185Jug as it has nearly the same wind drift but flies about 1-1.5 MOA flatter (2920fps vs. 2780fps) With a cartridge that has issues with vertical at 1k like the 223 the 95 may make the issue worse.

 

[Laurie]

N550 is double based, I tested it in 308s in competition a few yrs back. Probably fine in Britain but if you shoot where you get temp swings from 73 in the first relay and 93 in the last one it didn't work. The only times I've ever blown primers in competition were with 2000MR and N550.

We don't use a lot of N550 in the UK in FTR - a number of us did in the early days of heavy bullets in 308 but most people found it a bit hard on barrels. N150 in Palma brass works well with 175-200gn bullets in the 308. Having said that, one of our most consistently successful 308 FTR shooters over the last 10 years is Steve Donaldson who uses Palma brass, 210gn Berger BT and N550 at some pretty good MVs from a 32-inch barrel. He was at Raton for the 2013 US Nationals / FCWC as a privateer (thanks to his insistence on using the 210gn bullet - the team insisted on 155s for coaching reasons). He used his UK load throughout the two weeks with no charge adjustment at all somewhat to my surprise and ended up with very good results in both sets of matches.

I've tried N550 and Re17/Reload Swiss RS60 (same thing) in 223 with 90s and although MVs were good, never got them to produce small enough groups for me. We're losing VarGet and H4350 (and nearly all other Hodgdon powders too from this year thanks to EU regulations), but fortunately have acquired Reload Swiss RS52, a faster burning version of Re17/RS60 very much akin to H. VarGet and Re15 but able to produce higher MVs thanks to Nitrochemie's 'EI' deterrents infusion technology. N150 is an excellent 223 heavy (90gn) bullet 223 powder for those happy with lower MVs. The precision and MV consistency are such that I'll often shoot a lower velocity 90 N150 in short/mid-range matches in preference to higher velocity combinations. If Re15 were more temperature consistent, I'd probably stick to it with 90s as it produced my best ever results and 2,907 fps MVs with the 90gn Berger VLD (31-inch barrel). And, no I didn't junk Lapua brass after a single firing - I'd get four or five loads out of them then they were recycled to my other 223 used for short-range matches with N150 loads and junked at around the seven or eight firings level due to variable neck tension as we weren't annealing back then. Even here though, a hot summer's days saw Re15 pressures rise too much.

 

[Ned Ludd]

FWIW - the 95 SMKs are only about .020" longer (bullet OAL) on average as compared to a recent lot of Berger 90 VLDs...much of that is likely the pointed meplat on the 95 SMK. Sierra appears to have increased the weight largely by lengthening the bearing surface, which is almost .060" longer than the 90 VLD, rather than by lengthening the nose, which is ~0.045" shorter than that of the 90 VLD.

According to the Berger Twist Rate Calculator; at 65 degrees and 500 ft elevation, a 7-twist will be giving up ~2% of the intrinsic BC. A 6.8 twist is the minimal twist predicted to obtain the full BC, so not all that different from the 90 VLD. Bottom line...you're going to need LOTS more freebore to seat the 95 SMK optimally than with the 90 VLD. My guess is that a freebore length in the range of 0.250" to 0.275" would be just about right, dependent, of course, on where they prefer to be seated (i.e. into the lands, touching, or jumped). A rifle throated for 90 VLDs with the 0.169" fb 223 Rem ISSF reamer is going to have a LOT of bearing surface and boattail sunk down in the case below the neck/shoulder junction with the 95 SMKs.

Even with optimal freebore and seating depth, it is going to be difficult to hit the same nodes with a 30" barrel as the 2820-2850 fps nodes many people are getting with 90 VLDs and either Varget or H4895. Predicted pressures are at least 1-3K psi higher than my 90 VLD loads with H4895 (~2850 fps, 30" barrel), which already show extremely poor brass life, maybe 3-4 firings. For anyone considering this bullet for F-TR, you might want to be thinking about a 32" pipe with at least a 6.8-twist to go with the extremely long >/= 0.250" freebore for optimal performance.

 

[JBT47]

FWIW - the 95 SMKs are only about .020" longer (bullet OAL) on average as compared to a recent lot of Berger 90 VLDs...much of that is likely the pointed meplat on the 95 SMK. Sierra appears to have increased the weight largely by lengthening the bearing surface, which is almost .060" longer than the 90 VLD, rather than by lengthening the nose, which is ~0.045" shorter than that of the 90 VLD.

According to the Berger Twist Rate Calculator; at 65 degrees and 500 ft elevation, a 7-twist will be giving up ~2% of the intrinsic BC. A 6.8 twist is the minimal twist predicted to obtain the full BC, so not all that different from the 90 VLD. Bottom line...you're going to need LOTS more freebore to seat the 95 SMK optimally than with the 90 VLD. My guess is that a freebore length in the range of 0.250" to 0.275" would be just about right, dependent, of course, on where they prefer to be seated (i.e. into the lands, touching, or jumped). A rifle throated for 90 VLDs with the 0.169" fb 223 Rem ISSF reamer is going to have a LOT of bearing surface and boattail sunk down in the case below the neck/shoulder junction with the 95 SMKs.

Even with optimal freebore and seating depth, it is going to be difficult to hit the same nodes with a 30" barrel as the 2820-2850 fps nodes many people are getting with 90 VLDs and either Varget or H4895. Predicted pressures are at least 1-3K psi higher than my 90 VLD loads with H4895 (~2850 fps, 30" barrel), which already show extremely poor brass life, maybe 3-4 firings. For anyone considering this bullet for F-TR, you might want to be thinking about a 32" pipe with at least a 6.8-twist to go with the extremely long >/= 0.250" freebore for optimal performance.

Good info. Thanks.