AGE HARDENING

[KMart]

Now you are being silly. The response from my question was answered by a scientist metallurgist from a major copper company and you chose to discard the info because some reloaders experience more effort to seat bullets a week after cases are prepared compared to one day. It has nothing to do with when a case is sized or annealed. It’s a single phase alloy. The hardness cannot change without the grain size getting smaller. Cannot happen at any temp that a case is exposed to. Cartridge brass only gets harder by cold work. Norma has it wrong based on what metallurgist know and my knowledge of metallurgy.

Reminds me of a certain person that got a business degree from Penn State that doesn’t know the difference between weather and climate change. He claims 5000 climate scientist got it wrong and he understand it perfectly because he is smart.

My question to you has nothing to do with the response to the VERY knowledgeable scientist metallurgist.

YOU stated "Personal opinion and observation by a few people are not facts" meaning that anything I and others see ARE NOT FACTS. It didn't happen..

Now, you are just trying to show everyone just how intelligent you think you are.

 

[SBS]

My only experience with this problem was .225 Win. once fired brass. I bought over 1000 rds. of new brass for a M70 varmint rifle and fired nearly all of it once, as I had bought it cheaply after Winchester discontinued that caliber of rifle. 10 years later, after being in the attic 5 years and an outside shed 5 years, I tried to reload it. About 90% of the necks split when attempting to neck size it with a redding neck die. I had never let fired brass set this long and I had never experienced this problem. I annealed the necks and did not lose another round. Fired it several times and reloaded it several times and never another problem.

 

[Webster]

My question to you has nothing to do with the response to the VERY knowledgeable scientist metallurgist.

YOU stated "Personal opinion and observation by a few people are not facts" meaning that anything I and others see ARE NOT FACTS. It didn't happen..

Now, you are just trying to show everyone just how intelligent you think you are.

Maybe I could have worded it better. I never said or implied people didn't experience increased bullet seating force. Everyone seemed to arrive at what they thought was the most reasonable cause. Metallurgy says it must be something other than hardness. I am not trying to be smart. I am showing data from metallurgist in the copper industry. It is not my data or opinion. I am just presenting real data and people fight back and don't want to believe it.

 

[Mozella]

Let me see if I understand. If my next door neighbor and I see the guy across the street get shot and killed by his wife, it didn't really happen because it was only an observation and only 2 of us saw it?
Would we be allowed to testify in court about our observation or was what we saw only hearsay evidence and not facts?

Your analogy is nothing like the claims for cartridge brass age hardening. A closer one would be you talking to your neighbor and saying this:

"Hey Ralph, did you hear that Joe down the street died? I heard Joe bought a gun for his wife last year, did you hear that too?"

Ralph says: "I have the same doctor as Joe. He told me Joe died of cancer and Joe's kids and his sister told me the same thing. The cops and medical examiner all agree. Joe himself told me he had terminal cancer a few months ago."

You say, "I don't care what they say. I'm sure his wife shot him."

 

[Nature Boy]

You say, "I don't care what they say. I'm sure his wife shot him."

He probably deserved it.

If I bring another gun home anytime soon my wife will likely shoot me with it.

 

[Texas10]

A nice, new piece of cartridge brass can sit on the shelf for decades and not "age harden" HOWEVER...when you fill it with a propellant, chemicals in that propellant can and do cause the problems that lead to what we see as split necks in old ammo. Apparently it isn't really age hardening, but it really does (or did) effect the brass. Perhaps its a bygone era and those problems no longer exist with today's brass and propellants.

Another issue is the repeated cyclic work hardening of the neck brass by expansion and contraction via temperature swings when long term storage is not in climate controlled conditions. ( I know.....I never thought of that)

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/gunsmithing/cartridge-brass-specs-205640/
http://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/brass-hardeing-with-age.3892583/
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...topics/5289336/Age_hardening_of_cartridge_bra

 

[LHSmith]

A nice, new piece of cartridge brass can sit on the shelf for decades and not "age harden" HOWEVER...when you fill it with a propellant, chemicals in that propellant can and do cause the problems that lead to what we see as split necks in old ammo. Apparently it isn't really age hardening, but it really does (or did) effect the brass. Perhaps its a bygone era and those problems no longer exist with today's brass and propellants.

Another issue is the repeated cyclic work hardening of the neck brass by expansion and contraction via temperature swings when long term storage is not in climate controlled conditions. ( I know.....I never thought of that)

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/gunsmithing/cartridge-brass-specs-205640/
http://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/brass-hardeing-with-age.3892583/
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...topics/5289336/Age_hardening_of_cartridge_bra

Thanks, for the conglomeration of annecdotal evidence...that clears up the question once and for all

 

[Dans40X]

OP,
Lead the horse(s) to water & let them drink.

If they're not thirsty

Walk Away!!

 

[ireload2]

I think Olin has a manager that is courtesy of EEOC.

 

[joshb]

Somebody told me " never believe anything you read on the internet"

 

[riflewoman]

I think Olin has a manager that is courtesy of EEOC.

Why do you say that?

 

[dcali]

True story. I have a Tupperware containter that contains 100 pieces of unfired Norma .223 brass. It has been sitting in my cabinet undisturbed for about 18 years. If I load it up, am I gonna get split necks? I’ll bet good money that it’s fine.

 

[KMart]

True story. I have a Tupperware containter that contains 100 pieces of unfired Norma .223 brass. It has been sitting in my cabinet undisturbed for about 18 years. If I load it up, am I gonna get split necks? I’ll bet good money that it’s fine.

It is one of those things that is a 50/50 shot. Below is from the Buckeye Bullets and Brass website



Annealing Services

Annealing services are available for either fired brass that has become work hardened by several loadings or new brass that you feel would benefit for this softening process.

We have seen brass that is new in the box but that has been stored for several years to be is “hard”. This makes turning concentric necks more difficult, as well as a higher case loss due to cracked shoulders during fire forming.

Expanding the necks up to a larger caliber often results in split necks. We alleviate this problem by annealing the brass first to lower the number of pieces of brass that are culled due to split necks and rendered useless.

 

[4xforfun]

HOWEVER...when you fill it with a propellant, chemicals in that propellant can and do cause the problems that lead to what we see as split necks in old ammo. Apparently it isn't really age hardening, but it really does (or did) effect the brass.

a

Every loaded round of every caliber that I have ever seen had the necks filled top to bottom with BULLET....not powder. How could all those bad chemicals harden the brass if it isn't touching it?

Tod

 

[riflewoman]

True story. I have a Tupperware containter that contains 100 pieces of unfired Norma .223 brass. It has been sitting in my cabinet undisturbed for about 18 years. If I load it up, am I gonna get split necks? I’ll bet good money that it’s fine.

For career reasons, I stopped shooting for the better part of 10 years. All my ammo brass was stored. Last year I loaded up a bunch and it shot just fine. No split necks. It’ll be fine.

 

[ireload2]

It is obvious that she does not reload.
In spite of her title it is obvious that she is a marketeer and not an engineer.
Engineers do not have lying as part of their skill set listed on their resumes. Their life's work depends on facts, data and accuracy. So engineers are never allowed to be a spokespersons in large corporations.
So are you ticked by the EEOC reference. I have seen hundreds of such corporate drones.

Why do you say that?

 

[dcali]

Cartridge brass (C26000) does not have enough zinc to precipitation harden. If your old brass is cracking, it's due to some other effect - cold working and/or corrosion would be the obvious things to look at.

Male or female, marketing or engineering, those are the facts. The engineer originally quoted is 100% correct.

 

[riflewoman]

It is obvious that she does not reload.
In spite of her title it is obvious that she is a marketeer and not an engineer.
Engineers do not have lying as part of their skill set listed on their resumes. Their life's work depends on facts, data and accuracy. So engineers are never allowed to be a spokespersons in large corporations.
So are you ticked by the EEOC reference. I have seen hundreds of such corporate drones.

Since I spent 30+ years as an engineer in major aerospace corporations I can refute your claim that “engineers are never allowed to be spokespersons” . But that aside, even if she is acting entirely as a marketing type, the question asked was a technical question and technical questions get technical answers. The inquiry was likely sent to the metallurgy department for a technical response for her to send. Her response is factual. The claims from Norma and that company that provides ‘annealing services” is wrong. They’re in the business of selling new brass or services. I have Norma ammunition that is over 40 years old. Still hasn’t cracked.

 

[jdh47]

I have not experienced any old brass crack without being used a lot. I would think that it would depend a lot on how well the brass was annealed in the first place. Until proven otherwise I would tend to believe the metallurgist's statements until scientifically proven otherwise.

 

[4xforfun]

My take.......I own a Bench Source...and I DON"T CARE!!!

Tod