I think the 22-243 Ackley is the ideal 22 wildcat for heavy bullets. Fredo is building his 220 Redline so it will be interesting to see his results. He sounds like a guy that thinks things thru pretty well before diving in and throwing away a bunch of money. He has a handle in RPMs and velocities of the big case 22s. I just finished a 22-250 Ackley and it's probably all I'll need for next area code coyotes or wood Chuck's. 75-80 grain amax bullets at around 3500 fps is very fast and the bullets will be safe from fragmenting during flight. Mine is an 8 twist but I think a 9 would also work at those speeds. The 7 would have been a mistake I think. 7.5-7.75 would be a decent choice also and probably could use the 90s as well with those twist rates. Guessing at 3000 + fps, the 8 twist will do ok with the 90s. There's definitely a cartridge and speed/ RPM that is crossing the line. I guess you'll have to see where that is at with your new build. Thinking the 8.5-9 twist is the safest bet for 80s at 3700 fps. Good luck
22x284 Norma
- Thread starter Wingnut00
- Start date
I know from a few barrels I have tried, that for 80gn Bergers and Sierras, a 9" will not work at seas level, even at 3700fps, especially on cooler days, but it might work once you are at a bit of altitude or a very warm day. (less dense air). I would guess the 8.5" twist will likely be just enough.
Likewise the 90gn pills wont be reliable in 8" twist (unless you are shooting at a bit of altitude or very warm day. (likely 7.5" would work) I was hoping they would have worked in the slower twist as I bought them to try to minimize the bullet blow ups. Unfortunately I just couldn't get them to work consistently in those twists until I went to the next shorter class of bullet.
Yes very interesting thread for sure. Be curious to see how it turns out. And the more I think about this the more I think about bullet stability, accuracy, and then the part where the bullets never make it to their destination. With either the saum case or the 284 case I'm thinkin without a custom solid bullet a guy may never be able to find out what it could really do. I'm not rich so I can't really afford custom bullets. I need something that is gonna just plain work. 22-284 I know would work fine with probably a 8 or 8.5 twist and possibly even a 9. So step back a little to the 22-243 ackley, a person could get full potential of the case and not have to worry quite so much about bullets self destructing before hitting where they are intended. Maybe I should have started a thread on that being it maybe a little closer to what I'm wanting without as much experimenting. I don't know! But lots of excellent knowledge here so again thanks folks.Great thread huh?I also think a 22-243AI would be very interesting,I really like the idea of a big 22 that allows the use of a Lapua case
Matt
Much the reason why I went with the 22-250 Ackley. Didn't really want to have those issues. I'm certain eventually I could have found a perfect load for a larger case 22 but the 22-250 Ackley has been tried and true. Learning from others errors tends to cost a bit less than learning as you go. Many guys have perfected the 22-243 imp or middlestead and even the straight 22-243. The 22-250 Ackley will do what I need and with lapua brass and less brass wear being an improved design helps. I think the 22-243 Ackley would be a great power House for the 22 heavies. Maybe down the road I'll make it a project rifle.
Mark W
Gold $$ Contributor
I’ve been playing with a 1:9 twist 22-243 ai. I’m seeing sub moa groups at 3500 FPS with 75 Amax over RL 22 while fire forming. I pushed it a little harder with no pressure signs but the groups started to open up a little. I’m going to start at my fire form load and work up from there with formed brass now and see where it leads.
longbow
Silver $$ Contributor
Shot A 22-284 over 20 years ago. Actually won a 1,000 yd match out of Kalispell ,MT with it. Once I downloaded from 3300+ to around 3,000 it did better. Ended up going to the 6-284 and then the winning's were more regular. When your using 45+ grains of powder and the Dasher can do the same with 31, do the math.
I think it's the 22 caliber with NO recoil that's the attraction. Watching the bullet actually make contact with a ground hog is where the excitement is. Yes the little Dasher is a wonder but those 22 screamers with the recoil of a 22 rimfire with a 15 lb gun is a hoot.
Morning! Just catching up here...
Sir, what twist & bullet did ya shoot in your .22-243Win, and how did ya like its performance?
Just trying to get a handle on where you're at, and where ya wanna get to...
My .22-243Win. was a 1:7.7 Krieger & was a little beast in its own right. Sheer simplicity to neck down .243Lapua brass & enjoy the performance & butter slick feeding from a BDL setup. My calling partner runs a .22-243Win and he's pushin' 75VLDs just over 3600 (RL-22)...
I stepped over to a .22-243AI for two reasons:
1. Don't hafta trim those tapered parent cases all the time, or lose them to inevitable stretch.
2. Can run a slower burn powder with the extra capacity to (ideally) improve on barrel life & mitigate throat erosion.
Only caveat for going AI is to insure positive case feed from field hunting rifle. That is easily addressed by going to an AICS based detachable magazine setup. My .22-243AI feeds just as well as from an AICS magazine as my .22-243Win did from a tradition BDL. And I actually like the detach magazine better, as it makes "legal" unloading of the firearm a more straightforward task. When ya contest hunt & have to pass lie detectors, it behooves one to stay within the law...especially when your a lowsy liar!
Soon as we call the stand ended, mags drop & bolts open. From there, on out to the next stand, we're both legal, and more importantly...SAFE!Course you could look into a .22Creed. Have a few friends who run suppressed and they're loving their 70-75VLDs from their short barreled .22Creeds. Impressive speed with a case full of H4350...
As for a .22-284, not sure if (way back when) Greg Tannel & Blaine had the same setup? Didn't Blaine run a 1:14 or 15 for ultra warp launching very light .224 bullets???
I know MrMajestic on here runs a (1:8twist) 22-284 with 80s and he's getting super performance from it. You can look around, and/or maybe he'll chime in to share?
I'm doing this crazy .220REDLINE, just because. Figure it'd take a heckuva cartridge to improve upon the .22-243AI from a short action. And being that I already have SAUM dies, brass, and an action, I designed what I'd hope would allow enough velocity gain to warrant the extra powder burn & blast....
Once ya get a 75-80gr going 35-3600, that added BC kicks in and allows those heavy bullets to shoot almost as flat as a lighter bullet would from the same case. For a coyote calling rifle, I sure don't want to suffer a point blank range trajectory for no reason! Most all called coyotes are shot inside 300yds anyway, so that's the performance window to focus on. If things shake out with the .220REDLINE, a couple hundred FPS on top might increase that point blank distance by another 100yds? Just the thought of a 75 surviving 3900+ is tempting enough to risk attaining. What's that about having cake & eating it, too?
It's all in 'smith's hands now!
Not that practicality has much to do with wildcatting, but if you're already geared up for one particular parent case, it sure makes it easier to justify going off on a tangent. Seeing as how you're working with a .473" BF, its just a matter of getting a Type S FL .243AI die to go .22-243AI. Or, a set of .284 dies & some 6.5-284 brass to neck down.
Have fun deciding! The research part just adds to the overall fun factor...
I built one on a Mauser M98.
https://knowyourzero.com/2014/05/27/22-284-winchester-cartridge-development/
https://knowyourzero.com/2014/05/27/22-284-winchester-cartridge-development/
Thinking about a .22-6mm Rem and Redding F/L bushing dies might be a part of it. I have everything except the barrel & dies. I have lots of 68 and heavier .22 bullets. With the .22-250 I have found a 1-9 twist marginal with 75 Amax bullets - OK on warm day @ above 3000 ft.
What type of powder would be used in the mammoth .22's?
What type of powder would be used in the mammoth .22's?
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My Long Range coyote killer is a 22-243AI that shoots 90 bergers at 3400, and 80 amax at 3550... which I now shoot mostly... from a 8 tw brux 26" barrel...with Retumbo powder...full case of it. Never had any bullets puff except some 90's that I pushed alot hotter. My zero is at 300 yds with only a 1.75" midrange rise, which is nothing to worry about on a coyote. Just hold dead on fur and shoot out to 350 yds...at 400 it drops 7", so I hold on it's back for the DRT kill... deer hit in the shoulder crumble right there as well...without a pass through...but tracking is not needed anyways. I love the sound of a 22-284 as well, but I'm not sure the extra 200 feet or so would help me until I tried for shoots out in the 800 yd plus range... and that would only be a minor wind drift difference and drop... but not much. I shoot the slowest burning, full case, powder that will get me the desired speeds... which saves on barrel wear by calming down the dragon's breath. Anything that makes a 75 or 80 gr bullet sing to 3500 fps is going to be a hold on fur killing machine out to 350 yds... an extra 200-300 ft won't make it any better until you get way way out there... only then will the difference show up.
After saying all that...Heck... sign me up for a Hot Rod 22-284AI... that sounds like FUN.
My second long range killer is a 20-250 AI, with 55 bergers. These two calibers have identical ballistic drops and drifts out to 600 yds... only further out do they separate, with the 80 amaxes edging out those lighter 55's.
I only neck size the lapua brass for each caliber down enough to hold the bullet by 1.5-2.0 thou... brass last forever with my rigs.
After saying all that...Heck... sign me up for a Hot Rod 22-284AI... that sounds like FUN.
My second long range killer is a 20-250 AI, with 55 bergers. These two calibers have identical ballistic drops and drifts out to 600 yds... only further out do they separate, with the 80 amaxes edging out those lighter 55's.
I only neck size the lapua brass for each caliber down enough to hold the bullet by 1.5-2.0 thou... brass last forever with my rigs.
Ask me about my 22-378 Wby AI some time. 240 rounds or thereabouts...
I can't believe I'm the first one to bite and ask you to elaborate!!
I use H1000 in my 22-284
I have a 22-284 that shoots 80 gr Bergers at 3550-3600 fps. Very accurate but never shoot it. Lost interest. I use R25 and N570. Barrel is a 8 tw Brux 27”.
Hello. My 22-243 in its prime was runnin 75 bergers at 3560fps but now velocity has dropped as well as some accuracy. I've used rl-25 since it was built. It has a 8 twist benchmark stick on it. Like you have probably read my goal is a badass coyote thumper. I was simply thinking big case/small diameter heavy for caliber bullet=really fast and extremely deadly. Honestly before people started replying I had thought a little bit about spinning the bullets out of their hide but now I'm thinking it would be very simple with the 284 case. As far as your Redline concept it will be very interesting to see the results with that fire breathing rip.Morning! Just catching up here...
Sir, what twist & bullet did ya shoot in your .22-243Win, and how did ya like its performance?
Just trying to get a handle on where you're at, and where ya wanna get to...
My .22-243Win. was a 1:7.7 Krieger & was a little beast in its own right. Sheer simplicity to neck down .243Lapua brass & enjoy the performance & butter slick feeding from a BDL setup. My calling partner runs a .22-243Win and he's pushin' 75VLDs just over 3600 (RL-22)...
I stepped over to a .22-243AI for two reasons:
1. Don't hafta trim those tapered parent cases all the time, or lose them to inevitable stretch.
2. Can run a slower burn powder with the extra capacity to (ideally) improve on barrel life & mitigate throat erosion.
Only caveat for going AI is to insure positive case feed from field hunting rifle. That is easily addressed by going to an AICS based detachable magazine setup. My .22-243AI feeds just as well as from an AICS magazine as my .22-243Win did from a tradition BDL. And I actually like the detach magazine better, as it makes "legal" unloading of the firearm a more straightforward task. When ya contest hunt & have to pass lie detectors, it behooves one to stay within the law...especially when your a lowsy liar!
Course you could look into a .22Creed. Have a few friends who run suppressed and they're loving their 70-75VLDs from their short barreled .22Creeds. Impressive speed with a case full of H4350...
As for a .22-284, not sure if (way back when) Greg Tannel & Blaine had the same setup? Didn't Blaine run a 1:14 or 15 for ultra warp launching very light .224 bullets???
I know MrMajestic on here runs a (1:8twist) 22-284 with 80s and he's getting super performance from it. You can look around, and/or maybe he'll chime in to share?
I'm doing this crazy .220REDLINE, just because. Figure it'd take a heckuva cartridge to improve upon the .22-243AI from a short action. And being that I already have SAUM dies, brass, and an action, I designed what I'd hope would allow enough velocity gain to warrant the extra powder burn & blast....
Once ya get a 75-80gr going 35-3600, that added BC kicks in and allows those heavy bullets to shoot almost as flat as a lighter bullet would from the same case. For a coyote calling rifle, I sure don't want to suffer a point blank range trajectory for no reason! Most all called coyotes are shot inside 300yds anyway, so that's the performance window to focus on. If things shake out with the .220REDLINE, a couple hundred FPS on top might increase that point blank distance by another 100yds? Just the thought of a 75 surviving 3900+ is tempting enough to risk attaining. What's that about having cake & eating it, too?
It's all in 'smith's hands now!
Not that practicality has much to do with wildcatting, but if you're already geared up for one particular parent case, it sure makes it easier to justify going off on a tangent. Seeing as how you're working with a .473" BF, its just a matter of getting a Type S FL .243AI die to go .22-243AI. Or, a set of .284 dies & some 6.5-284 brass to neck down.
Have fun deciding! The research part just adds to the overall fun factor...
Also I've have decided that if I was gonna go nuts with the 22-284 I would do a long action so there would sit my short action with a smoked barrel. So I will probably wait on the 22-284 until I have a donor action and spin on a new stick with a 22-243 AI chamber.
As to the 22 creed suggestion that a few have mentioned, I'm sorry but hope to never own anything "creedmore".
I appreciate all the replies that have been contributed and while I think I have changed my mind to the 22-243 AI I would like the comments to keep poorin in so when I have a long action to build off of I may well still do the 284 version.
Thanks!
The 22-378 Wby was an itch I had for thirty years. I had Ackley's books in HS. In the late 50's NASA was trying to figure out a way to shield the satellites and crew from meteorites while in space. Somehow Bob Forker got involved in the project and suggested they build a hyper-velocity round and make .22 caliber BB's out of a small meteorite to shoot in it. It ended up the 378 Wby necked down to 22 caliber. They were getting nearly 7200fps with the Wby at the end. It worked. I just always wanted one.
I wrote for Precision Shooting Magazine for twelve years. "Just a Rockchuck Shooter from Idaho...". There was a company in Texas doing a micro-thin version of cera coating on barrel interiors. They claimed it would extend barrel life by two or three times. I had this friend that was head of R&D at Savage, Carl Hildebrandt. He called me one afternoon and asked me if I would be interested in doing some testing for them. For some reason it needed to be done out of house. He ended up sending me two 112 BV-SS's and two spare barrels. This was the early days, and nobody had ever done anything like this. I shoot all four barrels, all 223's because Savage fitted them with 1:9" twist barrels, note velocity, and swap each barrel around with each receiver. My gunsmith then rechambered all four of them for the 22-378 Wby. I then send the slowest and fastest barrels to this Black-Star company.
So, I got two coated, and two uncoated. A friend and I spend a day or two testing. End result; the uncoated barrels are toast in 120 rounds. We shot all weights of bullets, hit 5400fps with some of the 50gr bullets. The ones that made it to the Oehler 35P screens. About one out three bullets vaporized before getting to the target. The one that survived every shot intact was the old Nosler 60gr Solid Base.
The coated barrels went over 300 rounds. I sent everything back to Savage, but they opted not to do anything. Cost, iirc. I built myself one, just on accounta. You all know how that works...?
Next January, I am at the SHOT Show, and Hodgdon is having a banquet to celebrate 50 years in business. I get invited, find out Bob Forker will be there, and con Chris Hodgdon into seating me next to him.
One of Hodgdon's young engineer is sitting on his other side. 26, Masters in engineering, still young enough to know everything. Bob and I start talking about the project, and I can see this guy is doubting the story, but is too polite to throw the BS flag. We talk for several minutes, this guy keeps interrupting, and finally, having set the hook, I reach in my jacket pocket and hand a dummy round with one of Jimmy Knox' (JLK) 80gr VLD bullets in it over to Bob. It was just too much fun, watching this guy fondle the round. It went around the table, lots of big eyes that night.
I have this insatiable curiosity about all things that go bang. And, I am a velocity focused shooter/tinkerer.
I wrote for Precision Shooting Magazine for twelve years. "Just a Rockchuck Shooter from Idaho...". There was a company in Texas doing a micro-thin version of cera coating on barrel interiors. They claimed it would extend barrel life by two or three times. I had this friend that was head of R&D at Savage, Carl Hildebrandt. He called me one afternoon and asked me if I would be interested in doing some testing for them. For some reason it needed to be done out of house. He ended up sending me two 112 BV-SS's and two spare barrels. This was the early days, and nobody had ever done anything like this. I shoot all four barrels, all 223's because Savage fitted them with 1:9" twist barrels, note velocity, and swap each barrel around with each receiver. My gunsmith then rechambered all four of them for the 22-378 Wby. I then send the slowest and fastest barrels to this Black-Star company.
So, I got two coated, and two uncoated. A friend and I spend a day or two testing. End result; the uncoated barrels are toast in 120 rounds. We shot all weights of bullets, hit 5400fps with some of the 50gr bullets. The ones that made it to the Oehler 35P screens. About one out three bullets vaporized before getting to the target. The one that survived every shot intact was the old Nosler 60gr Solid Base.
The coated barrels went over 300 rounds. I sent everything back to Savage, but they opted not to do anything. Cost, iirc. I built myself one, just on accounta. You all know how that works...?
Next January, I am at the SHOT Show, and Hodgdon is having a banquet to celebrate 50 years in business. I get invited, find out Bob Forker will be there, and con Chris Hodgdon into seating me next to him.
One of Hodgdon's young engineer is sitting on his other side. 26, Masters in engineering, still young enough to know everything. Bob and I start talking about the project, and I can see this guy is doubting the story, but is too polite to throw the BS flag. We talk for several minutes, this guy keeps interrupting, and finally, having set the hook, I reach in my jacket pocket and hand a dummy round with one of Jimmy Knox' (JLK) 80gr VLD bullets in it over to Bob. It was just too much fun, watching this guy fondle the round. It went around the table, lots of big eyes that night.
I have this insatiable curiosity about all things that go bang. And, I am a velocity focused shooter/tinkerer.
That's a cool story!
knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...
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