Tuner experience

[Kings X]

I just did some testing to compare 100 yard vs 1000 yard tuner settings. I tuned my rifle at 1000 yards with ladders for powder and seating (pc) and I never shot the rifle at anything other than 1000 yards. I also never changed my original powder charge or seating depth and the rifle now has 450 rds since initial testing. My original charge and seating gave me a 589-23X at a recent 1000yd fclass match during my last outing with tuner on 0 and some high winds.

Another shooter had mixed feelings tuning at distance and his results were not giving him confidence so he fell back into tuning at 100 and ended up pretty darn close to what he came up with during 1000 yard testing for powder charge and his seating depth test at 100 matched his 1000 yd testing.

For the sake of testing, I decided to go out of my way and check my load at 100 yards. This was difficult because I have not shot at 100 in years. The closest has always been 200 yards.
My first 2 rds at 100 we’re sighters (tuner at 0) and then 4 rds thru the same hole. I then moved to a fresh target and did a full tuner test. Tuner at 0 gave me 0 vertical but 3 rounds in a horizontal string. I tested from 0 to 18 hashes on my EC tuner. Setting 10,16 and 18 were the best.

At the end of 100 yard testing I decided to take what I learned back to 1000. At 1000 I tested settings 9,10,11,16,17,18,19, and 20. 11 looked decent, 18 and 19 were good, 20 went out of control. Then I figured I would split hashes and try 18.5 and that’s we’re things tightened significantly. I shot 10 rounds under 5” of vertical.

My conclusion is that a tuner setting at 100 does not entirely translate to being the best setting at 1000. Nor do I think you can set and forget unless you are constantly adjusting your seating depth or powder charge. I’ve also run into situations were the load is tuned so good that playing with the tuner made things worse.
Now, with my busy work schedule I do not have the time that some have to test or tinker with fine tuning weeks or even the day before a match to find that perfect combination of powder and seating depth. I am trying to stick with the charge and seating depth that did good initially and just mess with the tuner when vertical starts to get out of hand. I have attached a 100 yard target to get an idea of what the tuner does at 100. I will also post a pic of the 1000 yard tuner test target this weekend.
View attachment 1026262

I would like to comment on your statement “the load is tuned so good that playing with the tuner made things worse”.
I think that setting is what makes a tuner nice. But Butch Lambert says there is a node every .054” (I think that is the number). It is hard to dial off that small group and look for it again, but with a series of groups that are as small as that single setting. That is the “window” tuners can offer. Then keep testing to see how wide a window can be achieved. The wider the window - the more you can tweak at the longer distances. The wide tune means smaller groups over a wider range of conditions. But if you do get to one “end” of the window, you are not afraid to dial back into the window.
Just how I understand the purpose of a tuner on a barrel with pre-loaded ammo.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I would like to comment on your statement “the load is tuned so good that playing with the tuner made things worse”.
I think that setting is what makes a tuner nice. But Butch Lambert says there is a node every .054” (I think that is the number). It is hard to dial off that small group and look for it again, but with a series of groups that are as small as that single setting. That is the “window” tuners can offer. Then keep testing to see how wide a window can be achieved. The wider the window - the more you can tweak at the longer distances. The wide tune means smaller groups over a wider range of conditions. But if you do get to one “end” of the window, you are not afraid to dial back into the window.
Just how I understand the purpose of a tuner on a barrel with pre-loaded ammo.

Not sure I'm following but I'd like to make a point that I think is relative here.

I do not look for wide ranges of "forgiveness" in terms of tuner setting. Reason being, tuners don't affect the things attributable for when a load goes out of tune, like powder characteristics. It can only affect the gun itself.

Perhaps there is a terminology problem when mentioning "wider tunes". I do not see the range of tuner adjustment, from in tune to out, change. That range stays fixed. A wider tune window in this context is one where the tuner nor the load need adjustment as often.

 

[savagedasher]

I would like to comment on your statement “the load is tuned so good that playing with the tuner made things worse”.
I think that setting is what makes a tuner nice. But Butch Lambert says there is a node every .054” (I think that is the number). It is hard to dial off that small group and look for it again, but with a series of groups that are as small as that single setting. That is the “window” tuners can offer. Then keep testing to see how wide a window can be achieved. The wider the window - the more you can tweak at the longer distances. The wide tune means smaller groups over a wider range of conditions. But if you do get to one “end” of the window, you are not afraid to dial back into the window.
Just how I understand the purpose of a tuner on a barrel with pre-loaded ammo.

I agree some what with Butch .058 I find to be Relative to the powder use
And Es
The lower your ES get the wider the tune
ES Is Vertical
Just using Butch numbers. .058
I’m assume he is calling a tune the location is where vertical and horizontal peaks together . Totally agree.
It can be seen on tuner testing .
Often over looked when testing
Is the movement direction .
ES being a major factor You will finds tune vertical up or down from the point of aim . Using his Numbers
And adding the point of aim you have a tune above and below the point of aim
100% agreed every .058 .
I think that number get smaller when Es is less .
Back to Tuning why two shots work the direction between others first and second bullet . The tune is trending .
Lines and numbers on a tuner is only a reference . The shooter must remember the direction his last two shots was trending .
My guns I find has a
Wider tune shooting vertical down from the point of aim .
If that means anything my gun barrel could work better timed down .
Thanks Butch for the numbers .
Guys all tuners work . Some you can find the .058 easy other you never will
RAS tuners have the most threads per inch on the market .
Don’t give up on tuners . And don’t think numbers Are the answer
Larry

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I would like to comment on your statement “the load is tuned so good that playing with the tuner made things worse”.
I think that setting is what makes a tuner nice. But Butch Lambert says there is a node every .054” (I think that is the number). It is hard to dial off that small group and look for it again, but with a series of groups that are as small as that single setting. That is the “window” tuners can offer. Then keep testing to see how wide a window can be achieved. The wider the window - the more you can tweak at the longer distances. The wide tune means smaller groups over a wider range of conditions. But if you do get to one “end” of the window, you are not afraid to dial back into the window.
Just how I understand the purpose of a tuner on a barrel with pre-loaded ammo.

I call Butch a friend and I value his opinion but I have never seen corroborating evidence regarding the ".054" node thing", with any tuner, including his.

It's a function of tuner mass and location along with barrel stiffness. This applies to any tuner. My best swag based on experience with his and most every available tuner, I would say that he might have said or meant .0054". But that is still difficult at best, to surmise, with the many various barrel lengths and contours.

Maybe he'll chime in.

 

[savagedasher]

I call Butch a friend and I value his opinion but I have never seen corroborating evidence regarding the ".054" node thing", with any tuner, including his.

It's a function of tuner mass and location along with barrel stiffness. This applies to any tuner. My best swag based on experience with his and most every available tuner, I would say that he might have said or meant .0054". But that is still difficult at best, to surmise, with the many various barrel lengths and contours.

Maybe he'll chime in.

Your number is more like I have found .

 

[savagedasher]

I always felt putting numbers on a tuner is like puting a screen door on a sub .
Larry

 

[butchlambert]

I always felt putting numbers on a tuner is like puting a screen door on a sub .
Larry

Laser engraving.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Not sure I'm following but I'd like to make a point that I think is relative here.

I do not look for wide ranges of "forgiveness" in terms of tuner setting. Reason being, tuners don't affect the things attributable for when a load goes out of tune, like powder characteristics. It can only affect the gun itself.

Perhaps there is a terminology problem when mentioning "wider tunes". I do not see the range of tuner adjustment, from in tune to out, change. That range stays fixed. A wider tune window in this context is one where the tuner nor the load need adjustment as often.

Thanks for this - good clarification and makes a lot of sense - so with a tuner do you just look for small? One of my dilemmas with a tuner has always been what I am looking for.
I shoot FTR so precision for a specific distance isn't an outcome I'm after but something that will hold .5 moa or better from 300 - 1000.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Thanks for this - good clarification and makes a lot of sense - so with a tuner do you just look for small? One of my dilemmas with a tuner has always been what I am looking for.
I shoot FTR so precision for a specific distance isn't an outcome I'm after but something that will hold .5 moa or better from 300 - 1000.

Go through this thread and look. I've posted what is very typical as the tune goes from in tune to completely out of tune with my tuners. If I get time later, I'll try to find the post.

 

[Kings X]

Laser engraving.

Wasn’t that .054”(.058”) to next node a note in your instruction sheet that came with the tuner?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Thanks for this - good clarification and makes a lot of sense - so with a tuner do you just look for small? One of my dilemmas with a tuner has always been what I am looking for.
I shoot FTR so precision for a specific distance isn't an outcome I'm after but something that will hold .5 moa or better from 300 - 1000.

The post I am referring to is on the 1st page of this thread, I think it's post #9

 

[6BRinNZ]

The post I am referring to is on the 1st page of this thread, I think it's post #9

Aah yes. Thank you.
I think I have been missing a bit with adjusting my tuner. But what you state makes sense in that the width of a node is coming from powder etc and the ultimate precision is coming from the tuner. Not that your saying it all can't be achieved without a tuner either.
Thanks again. Your input has definitely shaped my thinking.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Aah yes. Thank you.
I think I have been missing a bit with adjusting my tuner. But what you state makes sense in that the width of a node is coming from powder etc and the ultimate precision is coming from the tuner. Not that your saying it all can't be achieved without a tuner either.
Thanks again. Your input has definitely shaped my thinking.

Yes, powder characteristics have a lot to do with how well a load will stay in tune. N133 in a 6ppc is a good example of a powder that often seems like a schizophrenic hot chick that you can't take to family gatherings with dad around. Lol! It's great when it's on but is tempermental as heck.
Most cattridge/powder combos aren't as extreme as that one but they all go in and out of tune to some degree.
All things equal though, just having a mass at the end of the barrel lowers the frequency and creates a bigger arc of muzzle swing, both giving a wider tune window from the rifle itself. The result is less drastic changes in tune and smoothing out the big swings. Positive compensation is at least in part, why.

 

[rardoin]

N133 in a 6ppc is a good example of a powder that often seems like a schizophrenic hot chick that you can't take to family gatherings with dad around.

That's classic Mike!!!! I needed a good laugh before heading to the duck blind in 80deg weather.

 

[gmorris]

Just curious what crown are people using with tuners? Typical 11 degree or something else?

 

[butchlambert]

Wasn’t that .054”(.058”) to next node a note in your instruction sheet that came with the tuner?

Yes Sir, Tuners are different and that dimension may not work on Mike's. The Shadetree-Bald Eagle tuner needs a flat crown. Crown shape matters not on accuracy, it just needs to be sharp.