Come on fellas

[6MMsteve]

Yup.. once you set the die per rifle you can just knock them out... Setting a die up per instructions will lead to very short brass life or worse...

when I 1st started shooting I had a 220 swift and it had head separation after 3 or 4 firings never figured it out, the guy that taught me how to reload said a swift is hard on brass, forward 20yrs now I set my headspace by shoulder and measure I now have a 220 swift with 7 firings still going strong. Takes a time for info to sink in and you have to get the right info that's where ACC Shooter comes into play info is here all you need

 

[msinc]

"Come on fellas"??????? Blasting RCBS for this is about like getting upset with the parts guy at Auto Zone because he didn't tell you how to rebuild your turbocharger when you bought an air filter.

 

[BoydAllen]

"Come on fellas"??????? Blasting RCBS for this is about like getting upset with the parts guy at Auto Zone because he didn't tell you how to rebuild your turbocharger when you bought an air filter.

Perhaps you need to reread my original post. By what standards could that be called blasting? RCBS makes great products. No one has better customer service. I just think that they may seriously under utilizing the potential of videos. Given that they sell the equipment to properly set FL dies, mentioning that these instructions are a basic starting point, that reloaders may want to look into a slightly more refined approach that would be likely to prolong the life of their brass or words to that effect. At that point they could offer a link to a video about how to use one of these to set a die. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012939524/rcbs-precision-mic After all they do sell the tool. Again "Come on fellas" is not blasting, it is more like friendly nagging....unless you routinely require a safe space, and since I have talked to them, I know that they do not.

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

perhaps the precision of Whidden or Wilson, etc dies VS RCBS reflects the fact that Whidden dies cost five to six times the price of RCBS and 1% of 1% of the production, as is also true of LE Wilson.

Boyd,

if their litigation/legal dept did that, some mouth breather would sue them. Common sense is not that (common)...

 

[msinc]

Okay Boyd, fair enough...maybe "blasting" was not the best word, but it is a complaint and I don't see it. I have many RCBS dies and in the beginning, just like the entire rest of the world of new reloaders, I set my dies up exactly the way you are referring to. 1/4 turn cam over yadda, yadda. Back then I don't know of any die makers that didn't say to do it that way.
The RCBS Precision Mic was also one of the first tools I acquired for my reloading bench somewhere along about 1989 or 90 that was not really required to just make ammo. Not sure what year RCBS came out with the tool, but it had to be not too long before that. I shoot a lot and I have shot a lot of different calibers over the years. I reload for all of them and pretty early on I realized how important it was to have the case fit the chamber properly. I wasn't long getting the tooling to be able to check case length on everything.
In all those years I have only ever had one or two dies that did not properly full length size cases within SAAMI spec using the method you are crying about. I have a few that wouldn't go enough, so I ground off the bottom of the die. Sometimes this was caused by using a different brand shell holder. The one that made cases too short was returned and replaced for free.
The point being, I started reloading in 1980 and to this day I have not ruined or seen any premature damage to any brass I have resized or otherwise used that I can contribute to RCBS dies, the way they are manufactured or the way they advocate setting them up. If you use this set up and are losing cases due to case body failure then you need a gunsmith to correct your rifle, not a video to sell you a measuring tool.
Any given manufacturer produces and sells their product, they all offer tech support to help use whatever it may be. Ask them a question and they will answer it. But they cant really be held accountable for the further education of how far each end user needs to take it.

 

[BoydAllen]

Okay Boyd, fair enough...maybe "blasting" was not the best word, but it is a complaint and I don't see it. I have many RCBS dies and in the beginning, just like the entire rest of the world of new reloaders, I set my dies up exactly the way you are referring to. 1/4 turn cam over yadda, yadda. Back then I don't know of any die makers that didn't say to do it that way.
The RCBS Precision Mic was also one of the first tools I acquired for my reloading bench somewhere along about 1989 or 90 that was not really required to just make ammo. Not sure what year RCBS came out with the tool, but it had to be not too long before that. I shoot a lot and I have shot a lot of different calibers over the years. I reload for all of them and pretty early on I realized how important it was to have the case fit the chamber properly. I wasn't long getting the tooling to be able to check case length on everything.
In all those years I have only ever had one or two dies that did not properly full length size cases within SAAMI spec using the method you are crying about. I have a few that wouldn't go enough, so I ground off the bottom of the die. Sometimes this was caused by using a different brand shell holder. The one that made cases too short was returned and replaced for free.
The point being, I started reloading in 1980 and to this day I have not ruined or seen any premature damage to any brass I have resized or otherwise used that I can contribute to RCBS dies, the way they are manufactured or the way they advocate setting them up. If you use this set up and are losing cases due to case body failure then you need a gunsmith to correct your rifle, not a video to sell you a measuring tool.
Any given manufacturer produces and sells their product, they all offer tech support to help use whatever it may be. Ask them a question and they will answer it. But they cant really be held accountable for the further education of how far each end user needs to take it.

Again with the exaggeration...nowhere did I cry. Setting up fl dies using the cam over, one size fits all approach will end up moving shoulders back too far in a significant number of cases. From my experience, the number of years that someone has been reloading is often not connected to their level of skill. I know fellows that have been at it for decades who still do not have a good handle on the finer points. SAAMI spec really has very little to do with it. It is a matter of setting the die so that the fit is correct for a particular rifle's headspace, or in the case of belted cases in proper relation to the chambers shoulder to head dimension. Back in the day before there were tools to use for setting up dies, and the average shooter blindly followed the directions that came with their dies, I knew fellows who had custom rifles chambered in belted magnums that chalked up their short case lives to "Magnum pressure". None of us had a clue as to how far forward a typical belted case's shoulder is blown forward on the first firing, or that if the sizing die is set to cam over, how far it would be set back. Cases split after as few as four firings. Of course if they had been paying attention they would have known about Wilson's case gauges for belted magnums that were and are adjustable for brass from various chambers. There is no SAAMI to the shoulder headspace for belted cases, and rifles vary a lot in this dimension, which is why the gauges are adjustable. Today we can do the same thing for a wider variety of calibers using tools such as Hornady's "headspace gauge", which of course is NOT a headspace gage, but rather a comparitor used to properly set up FL, body and shoulder bump dies.

As far as precision goes, some may not know that RCBS makes bushing style FL dies that give results as good as any made with the exception of dies that are custom made to pair with a particular chamber or chamber reamer. I have used them in a couple of calibers along with their coated bushings which I have also carefully measured and they are as correct as any.

 

[msinc]

......... the number of years that someone has been reloading is often not connected to their level of skill.........SAAMI spec really has very little to do with it.......... the average shooter blindly followed the directions..;.......There is no SAAMI to the shoulder headspace for belted cases......... which is why the gauges are adjustable.........

It appears that the number of posts someone has is not connected to their knowledge level either......

 

[BoydAllen]

Not in any way. If you watch the whole thing, you might learn something.

http://www.mssblog.com/2016/04/14/cam-over-dont-do-it-just-dont/

 

[hogpatrol]

Guff? Guff? Where are you???? Shoulder bumping thread. Earth to Guff. Come in please.

 

[Someoldguy]

Guff? Guff? Where are you???? Shoulder bumping thread. Earth to Guff. Come in please.

Ah, Man! Now you went and done it.

 

[dolek]

Basic instructions are meant for new re-loaders with factory firearms. For that group, which are probably the majority of their customers, those instructions work and work safely. For competition shooters, many with custom actions and custom chambers, we need to understand what is going on and be able to figure it out without using those basic instructions. They are a starting point, not the end point.

Well said,you nailed it.

 

[BoydAllen]

Question (that I know the answer to): What is the typical allowed variance in headspace for a rimless cartridge chamber from min to max according to SAAMI. In other words how much longer is maximum than minimum? My point is that this represents the possible range of factory rifle headspace measurements that you could find that would still be considered within SAAMI specifications.

 

[Intheshop]

Thanks Hog,got coffeesnot to clean up now!

 

[jimmymac]

First of all, this is not about RCBS's products or customer service. Recently, on their Facebook page they put up a how to do it video on how to set a FL die. They said raise the ram, adjust the die until it touches the shell holder, then lower the ram and turn the die an additional quarter turn, just like their directions read. Come on fellows is that the best that you can do? That sort of advice causes more problems than it solves.

Personally, I don't see how this post has ruffled any feathers. I think the post makes perfect sense.

When I got started in reloading, some further explanation from the die manufacturer in regards to proper sizing (shoulder bump) without over sizing would have put me on a much faster path to precision reloading versus a one size fits all solution.

Keep posting Boyd. You freely share a lot of good information on this forum versus a lot of guys who'd just keep good information to themselves. No good deed goes unpunished.

 

[dickn52]

Well said,you nailed it.

Think I said the exact same thing two pages ago.

 

[divingin]

When I got started in reloading, some further explanation from the die manufacturer in regards to proper sizing (shoulder bump) without over sizing would have put me on a much faster path to precision reloading versus a one size fits all solution.

The thing is, I suspect a majority of shooters are fine with the one-size-fits-all solution. As long as the gun goes bang, and the bullet travels roughly target-ward, they're good with that. As someone else mentioned, making precision ammunition has a lot of other steps - measuring, verifying, tweaking - that those guys wouldn't put up with. I've seen guys try to shoot without any kind of sights on a rifle. I really doubt they'd take the time to make accurate ammo.

I see this conversation as being along the lines of a Formula One driver complaining about the lack of performance tips included in the owners manual for a Honda Civic. Completely different expectations. Sure, more performance involved explanations may be better for the few who want that, but would it actually do any good to the Honda driver who wants to get from home to work?

That said, I'll take all the tips I can get. Which is why I'm on this (and other) forum(s) rather than re-reading the instructions that came with my dies.

 

[brokeasajoke]

So let's say I have range/friends brass that was fired out of a rifle not my own. Do I start with the die out then slowly screw the die in checking bolt closure in the rifle each time I size the brass? I have the hornady tool but seems it would not be any use for brass fired from another chamber.

 

[Raythemanroe]

So let's say I have range/friends brass that was fired out of a rifle not my own. Do I start with the die out then slowly screw the die in checking bolt closure in the rifle each time I size the brass? I have the hornady tool but seems it would bot be any use for brass fired from another chamber.

I always size a little at a time until it runs smoothly through the gun..

Ray

 

[Homerange]

So let's say I have range/friends brass that was fired out of a rifle not my own. Do I start with the die out then slowly screw the die in checking bolt closure in the rifle each time I size the brass? I have the hornady tool but seems it would not be any use for brass fired from another chamber.

IF you know it comes from just one rifle and the brass fits your rifle just use it.
If it's once fired and doesn't fit your rifle, FL size it and have a known starting point, shoot/fireform then address shoulder bump/displacement when needed.
If it was new brass I'd be wanting to fireform it anyway as all my loads are neck sized only.
All of my Hornady .223 range brass and most brass for my other calibers has been pickups and fitted my chambers from the get go, any that don't get given to others or go in the scrap.....except Lapua.

 

[jimmymac]

The thing is, I suspect a majority of shooters are fine with the one-size-fits-all solution. As long as the gun goes bang, and the bullet travels roughly target-ward, they're good with that. As someone else mentioned, making precision ammunition has a lot of other steps - measuring, verifying, tweaking - that those guys wouldn't put up with. I've seen guys try to shoot without any kind of sights on a rifle. I really doubt they'd take the time to make accurate ammo.

I see this conversation as being along the lines of a Formula One driver complaining about the lack of performance tips included in the owners manual for a Honda Civic. Completely different expectations. Sure, more performance involved explanations may be better for the few who want that, but would it actually do any good to the Honda driver who wants to get from home to work?

That said, I'll take all the tips I can get. Which is why I'm on this (and other) forum(s) rather than re-reading the instructions that came with my dies.

I suspect you may be right to a great extent and I get what you are saying, but didn't most folks that reload get into it to make better ammunition and improve their shooting? I know that was why I did it. It wasn't for economy.

When I started reloading, I wasn't smart enough to realize I could do better. I didn't even question it because I was following a clear set of instructions provided by my equipment manufacturer and my old Lyman guide. That seemed reasonable because they were the experts, not me. In retrospect that may have been naive, but I was shooting better so I figured I was doing about the best I could with the equipment I had. I didn't know what I didn't know, so a set of advanced instructions would have given me more to think about and helped me maximize my efforts. That's all I'm saying.

With that said, I'm happy things have evolved. Information is certainly easier to come by than it ever was before. Sometimes too much. It can be difficult so separate the wheat from, the chaff. I like this site.