fo vs ftr advantage
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Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
How far?
At 300, no advantage. At 500 and 600, 10 shots is too small of a sample. At 1K, 2 points...
At 300, no advantage. At 500 and 600, 10 shots is too small of a sample. At 1K, 2 points...
If you go to the Bayou Rifles web-page and look under last month's match results, you will be asking another question: How much will F-T/R have to spot F-Open?!!! LOL!! Look at that web-site and look for Ray Weaver and Jennifer Bondurant>>> BOTH shoot F-T/R and see which question you would ask!
Take a certain number of your 10 shot strings and average the score.
Take the same number of your friend's 10 shot strings and do the same, preferably shot during the same matches. The more samples you have the better.
Then take the difference between the two averages and that's your relative handicap. Place your bet, shoot ten targets, apply the handicap, and enjoy lunch.
This will take into account your relative skills as well as your equipment advantage/disadvantage. If you want to eliminate shooter skill and make it all about equipment, take a lot of samples from other matches and find the average difference between the two classes. That will be a rough approximation of the different scores you can expect from the two classes based on equipment, assuming both F-Open and F/TR have good shooters in the respective classes.
Take the same number of your friend's 10 shot strings and do the same, preferably shot during the same matches. The more samples you have the better.
Then take the difference between the two averages and that's your relative handicap. Place your bet, shoot ten targets, apply the handicap, and enjoy lunch.
This will take into account your relative skills as well as your equipment advantage/disadvantage. If you want to eliminate shooter skill and make it all about equipment, take a lot of samples from other matches and find the average difference between the two classes. That will be a rough approximation of the different scores you can expect from the two classes based on equipment, assuming both F-Open and F/TR have good shooters in the respective classes.
It's the end of the practice session so both of you should have your equipment and range conditions mastered. Make it easy; one shot each closest to center punching the X wins. Make a clause though that the winner of the next full match buys the beer
ImBIllT
Silver $$ Contributor
Unless you're highest score ever(for a five shot string) is a 49 or below then he should spot you 0 points. Perhaps two X's would be a fairer spot.
90% of the advantage is cartridge/caliber. Higher BC's at higher velocities. I prefer a bipod over a front rest. Weight makes gun handling a little less critical, but it can certainly be dealt with. Weight also allows you to shoot a stiffer barrel, but that's much more important in short range benchrest.
90% of the advantage is cartridge/caliber. Higher BC's at higher velocities. I prefer a bipod over a front rest. Weight makes gun handling a little less critical, but it can certainly be dealt with. Weight also allows you to shoot a stiffer barrel, but that's much more important in short range benchrest.
This is really a detailed restatement of the question.
I'm basically asking if anybody has enough experience to just know or has actually done the math.
Just looking at the last couple of years at the places where I might shoot the advantage looks quite large - maybe up to the 5 I mentioned. Unfortunately shooting samples are very small and it takes a lot to get near statistically valid.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Conditions have a lot to do with the relative advantage. When the conditions are fairly benign the advantage to Open is less, but when it gets lumpy the Open needs about 1/3 to 1/2 less windage of the TR.
I shot a 2 day mid range match recently in TR where the conditions were not particularly challenging. I tied the #2 finishing F-Open shooter on score and was one point behind the winner, but I only had about 2/3 the X count of either. Had the winds been higher those dropped Xs would have become dropped points.
I shot a 2 day mid range match recently in TR where the conditions were not particularly challenging. I tied the #2 finishing F-Open shooter on score and was one point behind the winner, but I only had about 2/3 the X count of either. Had the winds been higher those dropped Xs would have become dropped points.
So it's unanimous that what advantage there is is mainly ballistic, therefore greater in tough conditions/longer ranges?
I can't be the only newb who looks at the line and thinks the rests must be a big advantage. It does make me feel better about shooting better scores with my sinclair than a rest
thanks for the input , all
I can't be the only newb who looks at the line and thinks the rests must be a big advantage. It does make me feel better about shooting better scores with my sinclair than a rest
thanks for the input , all
Exactly so. When looking at GB F-Class League results posted online at the end of a day's competitions for rounds that I've not attended, I can tell how hard the conditions are simply by comparing the winners' aggregate scores for the two classes. If benign, they are fairly close; if hard the gap jumps two or threefold.
That is for aggregates with individual stages shot at a minimum of 800, maximum of 1,000 and the longer distance offering more points through 20-round courses of fire against 15 for 800/900 yards.
Last year's individual match aggregates for the F-Class European Championships meeting at Bisley were:
FTR ........ 464.30v to 467.31v for the top 5 competitors. (Our 'Bull' scores 5, so HPS for the 100 round agg was 500.100v, the 800/900 yard matches being 2+15s, the 1,000s 2+20, two shot at each distance over two days.)
F-Open ... 476.39V to 480.44v for the top 5.
Just looking at those scores told me that conditions were (relatively) 'easy' long before the write-up appeared given the 'mere' 13 points between the class winners. In 'hard' conditions, that would have been 30-45 points on the aggs. Sure enough, when the write-up came, Des Parr described the conditions as abnormally steady with relatively light winds for Bisley in September. On day 2 not only did several FTR shooters 'clean' the 800 yard stage (not unusual especially if FTR is assigned the first relay of the day before the winds get up), but two FTR competitors 'cleaned' Stage 5 at 900 which was unprecedented.
Our annual 'short-range' league round (4 matches at 600 yards at the very tricky Diggle Ranges) early in the season and usually subject to dire upland weather conditions still sees F/O hammer FTR every year.
On only one occasion ever, do I remember the FTR winner beating F/O in one of our national league rounds on aggregate. That too was at Diggle in unusually good summer weather conditions. The reasons for this turnaround were that Russell Simmonds World FTR Champion at the time and in really sparkling form that weekend had the added bonus of a freak calm in one of the two 2+20 1,000 yard stages and either cleaned it or only dropped a point. When it was F/O's turn, the conditions had changed enough to see the class winner drop several points.
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
Just some more data points. The Nationals last year were shot a Lodi using electronic targets. One of the features of these targets is the fact they record the velocity of the bullet at the target. My 210gr .308 JLKLBT were coming in at about 1400FPS, I saw F-BBR shooters with their 7mm bullets coming in at 1800FPS.
Ouch.
Ouch.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Assuming the two different loads were developed to equal precision, the F-Open setup will likely have the advantage at any distance you shoot, and the advantage will increase as the distance increases. It's impossible to state with any certainty how many points he should spot you; I have no idea what your relative skill levels are. The best idea for you is to simply beat him straight up...then there's no question 
.
.Down South
FTR Junkie
Definitely a big advantage for Open guns, especially in rough conditions. I personally know several former FTR shooters that consistently shot high 580s to low 590s with the occasional 596-598 in 600 yard matches that jumped in Open class shooting Dashers etc. and now very rarely shoot under 594 and normally shoot 597-600 in matches. It makes a difference for sure. At 1000 yards it shows up even more so usually.
It is much harder to make high master with an F-TR rifle than with an F-O. High Master requires 98% of the points over 120 consecutive shots. Master requires 96.5% (if I recall correctly). Whatever the advantage is, I put it at less than that difference (1.5%).
For 10 shots (100 points possible) that comes down to 1 or 2 points. A 1-2% difference is more likely to show up in a 60-120 round contest between friends than in 10 shots.
I shoot a bunch of informal F-Class matches with friends and family. We don't usually wager, but we shoot them "straight up" for bragging rights. The F-TRs win as often as the F-O rigs, mostly because the F-TR shooters are very good, we shoot mostly at 300-600 yards, and the F-O guys tend to trust their equipment too much and let down on their focus just enough to drop a point or two more.
Maintaining focus and fundamentals for a 60 shot competition is not simple for a lot of shooters.
For 10 shots (100 points possible) that comes down to 1 or 2 points. A 1-2% difference is more likely to show up in a 60-120 round contest between friends than in 10 shots.
I shoot a bunch of informal F-Class matches with friends and family. We don't usually wager, but we shoot them "straight up" for bragging rights. The F-TRs win as often as the F-O rigs, mostly because the F-TR shooters are very good, we shoot mostly at 300-600 yards, and the F-O guys tend to trust their equipment too much and let down on their focus just enough to drop a point or two more.
Maintaining focus and fundamentals for a 60 shot competition is not simple for a lot of shooters.
Less recoil, easier handling/tracking rifles because of the front rest, and higher BC bullets pushed faster. I don't see how they ever drop a shot.
Snuggie
F/TR
Feel free to come to the Sparks, Nevada 1000yd matches. You will quickly see how all classes drop points.
I have never heard of this class before?
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