Custom Action Q.C.

[C.E.Smith043]

I would like to hear some opinions from fellow shooters on this particular topic. A good friend of mine is an extremely good Machinist along with being an excellent gunsmith. On several occasions I have talked to him about some of the rifles that he has put together using custom actions. Over the years he's pretty much at least got his hands on one of each action ever produced. Here's where my question and my problem comes in.

Every single time him and I get to talking about custom actions he always claims that they need to be put in his lathe and "touched up". He says that quite often when he puts a custom action in his lathe it's not 100% true and square.

Personally myself, I just cannot believe that the excellent custom action companies that we have and the extreme high-dollar CNC machines they use would be off enough for him to be able to diagnose it.

He uses a basic lathe from Grizzly for his Gunsmithing. I haven't told him this but personally I think his lathe is off.

I don't want to do anything to jeopardize our friendship but how many of you believe that custom actions do indeed come needing some work?

I would guess the QC (Quality Control) from a quality company like Stiller or Kelbys would be outstanding, just to mention a few.

 

[deepwater]

My gunsmith has mentioned to me similar occurances where custom actions need remedial work to meet his standards.

 

[C.E.Smith043]

My gunsmith has mentioned to me similar occurances where custom actions need remedial work to meet his standards.

Yea, I just have a hard time believing that his 6 - $8,000 lathe could be any more accurate than the several thousands of dollars that custom action companies spend on their CNC machining equipment. But maybe I'm wrong, I'm no machinist or a Gunsmith.

 

[johnfred1965]

I have also heard that some of the best gunsmiths will try to clean up the near perfection of custom actions. BUt I have also heard there are some out there that you just go ahead and build on. I guess everyone has their own tolerances.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The biggest variable is the test fixture. Realistically speaking, the test fixture and the process of indicating the part in, must be roughly twice as precise as the claimed tolerances to be.

Again, realistically speaking, this is not feasible in even a top notch tool and die environment, with claimed tolerances of .0002" or less.

It's easier to make something that is dead nuts than it is to prove otherwise, believe it or not.

Even the very best and state of the art equipment will struggle to PROVE .0002" tolerances to be or not to be.

People in the shooting world tend to throw those stated tolerances around like candy. I assure you, they are not. --Mike Ezell

 

[C.E.Smith043]

The biggest variable is the test fixture. Realistically speaking, the test fixture and the process of indicating the part in, must be roughly twice as precise as the claimed tolerances to be.

Again, realistically speaking, this is not feasible in even a top notch tool and die environment, with claimed tolerances of .0002" or less.

It's easier to make something that is dead nuts than it is to prove otherwise, believe it or not.

Even the very best and state of the art equipment will struggle to PROVE .0002" tolerances to be or not to be.

People in the shooting world tend to throw those stated tolerances around like candy. I assure you, they are not. --Mike Ezell

Let me ask this, he once told me he chucked up a Kelby Panda and it was out .003" on the action face....Does that sound believable to you or do you think his equipment is most likely to be off that amount ?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Let me ask this, he once told me he chucked up a Kelby Panda and it was out .003" on the action face....Does that sound believable to you or do you think Kelby makes these better than that?

I really doubt it. Like I said, making something to tight tolerances is actually easier than verifying them...if the setup is sound. I don't know the Kelbly's setup process but it's almost always best to do as many ops as possible from a single setup. Assuming they use a setup reflecting this basic machining knowledge, it'd be difficult to be that far out. FWIW

 

[boltfluter]

Let me ask this, he once told me he chucked up a Kelby Panda and it was out .003" on the action face....Does that sound believable to you or do you think his equipment is most likely to be off that amount ?

I personally think his equipment is suspect.

Paul

 

[C.E.Smith043]

I really doubt it. Like I said, making something to tight tolerances is actually easier than verifying them...if the setup is sound. I don't know the Kelbly's setup process but it's almost always best to do as many ops as possible from a single setup. Assuming they use a setup reflecting this basic machining knowledge, it'd be difficult to be that far out. FWIW

ok thanks

 

[Alex Wheeler]

First, it would not be his equipment. I cant imagine how bad the bearings would have to be to show .003" on the face of a 1.5" diam. His setup may be a problem however.

But he is not wrong. I have seen many problems with custom actions, some are excellent others no better than factory IMO. I have seen many with only one lug contacting, warped bolts, ignition bind, exc. But there are a few that routinely are excellent.

Like all products we use, when your pushing the competitive edge you must check everything and improve it if you can.

 

[C.E.Smith043]

First, it would not be his equipment. I cant imagine how bad the bearings would have to be to show .003" on the face of a 1.5" diam. His setup may be a problem however.

But he is not wrong. I have seen many problems with custom actions, some are excellent others no better than factory IMO. I have seen many with only one lug contacting, warped bolts, ignition bind, exc. But there are a few that routinely are excellent.

Like all products we use, when your pushing the competitive edge you must check everything and improve it if you can.

Very good point

 

[Liven The Dream]

I would like to know if He or anyone has found a Barnard P Action to be our of Spec. Or True ????

 

[Dans40X]

I would like to know if He or anyone has found a Barnard P Action to be our of Spec. Or True ????

Don,
Comparing any Barnard to a US Custom action is like comparing a Bentley to a Yugo or a Rolex to a Timex!


CNC'd equipment/parts are only as precise as the "dedicated operator" loading the machine.

 

[tcob68]

I ask Hall of Fame benchrest shooter Speedy Gonzales a very similar question during a conversation once and he told me that he checks every action he builds on no matter who it came from. There's a reason he does.

 

[jonbearman]

Without the correct inspection equipment, that Kelblys probably has like a cordinate measuring machine or a zeiss it would be kind of hard to believe that his lathe could hold a tolerance based on kelblys set-up they use. Kelblys more than likely have a very good fixture set-up to check their receivers in the same way they make them. I realize that companys make arbors with bushings to fit inside the receiver to check squareness and other tolerance's. I would get another smith to do work on a 1500.00 receiver regardless of who made it like Sid Goodling in pennsylvania and there are a host of others right on this site that are very accomplished machinists. Ask Alex Wheeler to check a new receiver for squareness. When I ran a cnc slant bed lathe at Gleason Works(we made gear cutting machines) the raw parts were made slightly oversize so they could go to heat treat and then get ground on precision grinders and that is one of the only ways to hold less than .0002 of an inch. We had to work in the millionths. So there are many story tellers out there with mumbo jumbo to get you to do the work. I had a local guy well known in these parts do a Remington rifle for my buddy. We got it back and he squared it up ,adjusted the trigger, hart barrel, and bead blasted it all for a total of almost 2000.00 dollars which included the cost of a like new rifle. We took it out and tried to fire it, it shot lousy. I used a trigger gage and his so called adjustment didnt happen it was set at over 4 pounds. I adjusted the trigger to 2#'s and we ended up taking the barrel off and found a small hump on the face of the receiver so we stoned it off carefully. Put it back together and it was one of the most accurate 6mm-284's I have ever shot. The long short of it was he never faced that receiver, never touched the trigger which still had the hot melt glue in the screws so average guys wouldnt touch it. In the end some unscrupulous guys sell their snake oil to charge more. The guy who shall remain nameless owns a rifle manufacturing company now, go figure. There are a lot of guys right on this site that could do anything you need at fair price's and you would end up with a great shooting rifle. Your buddy can do whatever he can to help you but if I ever buy another custom receiver it will go to a reputable gunsmith and pay whatever they want so to speak to do it right the first time. There are many guys on here who can do your work in a timely professional manner. I dont know where you live but there are guys all over the place who can help you. Your buddy is probably a great guy but be careful.

 

[clowdis]

I would like to know if He or anyone has found a Barnard P Action to be our of Spec. Or True ????

Don,
The Barnard is one of the actions out there that I have found true enough that I will make a barrel for and ship without having the action in my hands.

 

[expiper]

Don,
Comparing any Barnard to a US Custom action is like comparing a Bentley to a Yugo or a Rolex to a Timex!


CNC'd equipment/parts are only as precise as the "dedicated operator" loading the machine.

Is the Barnard the Yugo !!!....I will stick with Kelbly or Bat,,,,they are good enuff for the kind of shootin I do,,,Roger

 

[watercam]

I would like to know if He or anyone has found a Barnard P Action to be our of Spec. Or True ????

Don,
The Barnard is one of the actions out there that I have found true enough that I will make a barrel for and ship without having the action in my hands.

I'll second and third that. I have at least four barrels that were cut for another Barnard P action and every one comes up to minimum or close enough head space every time. It's uncanny.

 

[BoydAllen]

Much of this comes down to how you verify. I believe that it was Jackie Schmidt that mentioned something about how to verify work done truing an action. It requires a mandrel that is a snug fit in the bolt bore. You turn a false tenon including the shoulder, that is a close fit to the action threads (material chosen to preclude galling in the action, plus some oil on the threads) and snug the action onto it while it is still in the chuck on the lathe, with enough force to square the face and center the threads. Then you insert the mandrel so that it touches the false tenon and extends beyond the tang of the action. Set your indicator on the mandrel past the action and turn the lathe over by hand. Feel free to correct any of this, but would it not show problems of face squareness? I have been told that if barrel threads are a bit loose and the face is square, even if the action threads are a bit off, that the tenon and action faces will make good contact and the rifle will shoot, assuming good lug contact, which can be verified without a lathe.

One the subject of quality control, I have heard reports of one custom action that sees a lot of use being delivered with bolt faces out of square, not very often, but apparently has happened. This shows up as difficulty in opening the bolt on a fired case with a load that is in the normal range of competition benchrest.

Back in the day Speedy told me that he generally had to touch up custom actions, sometimes having to devote significant time to that work.

 

[Liven The Dream]

Don,
The Barnard is one of the actions out there that I have found true enough that I will make a barrel for and ship without having the action in my hands.

Well Don Had the answer want to see if anyone would disagree! The replies would have been riveting.
Thanks