First swim in the "deep end" and a question.

[joshb]

I get a call from one of my "kids". He's got the day off, wants to see the new range I joined and shoot out to 500. Great, I think. I'm ready! My 6.5-47 is shooting tacs at 100 with my "good load" and it's time to take the next step. Pack up the guns and off we go. Atglen Shooting club is a great range. It took me a while to finally get in. They have a nice set up where the 100 to 500 meter ranges are all shot from the same benches. Perfect! I can set targets on each range and work my way out. They also have Rams, Turkeys and Chicken steel targets set at the longer ranges. Now, on a side note, learned member Hogpatrol has been nudging me to do this. I was hopeful that I could sneak a few sessions in before I shot in front of experienced guys just so I don't look like a complete idiot. Sure enough, that plan gets squashed. I pull into the parking lot just as Hogpatrol is coming back from checking targets. I have to say that he was very nice, gave me some pointers as we talked and didn't "hover" with a critical eye. I start with some load work up on a couple guns and then pull out the 6.5. 100 is great! Tiny groups. Move to 200, figure out and record my scope adjustments and shoot a couple more nice groups. So far, so good. I can't see the 300 target from my bench off in the corner, so I jump to 400. Things start to fall apart. I get my scope figured out and go for a group. Ugh. Turns out to be 2", but I can see it's not great. Move up to 500. The wheels start coming off. I shoot. I can't see a hole. I'm using a 60 power Golden Eagle. My kid is hitting with a 308 and I can see his holes. Ok. I've guessed with elevation change. Keep trying. 5 more shots on target and I finally get a hole I can see. Shoot 5? I get two more shots off and a cease fire is called. What the heck, let's go check the target. When we get to the 500 target, I find my 2 shots, 4" below left, 4" apart. Well, at least I hit paper. Then, I look closer at the ammo box a guy left on the ground in front of the target. It's a target cam! Hmmm. I thought I wouldn't need one of those. I guess I do. It's getting late, so we pull all our targets on the way back. Not quite ready to call it a day, we decide to shoot at that Ram at 500. I put 10 shots on it and get 10 hits. My pride somewhat restored, we pack it up. All in all, a good day in the classroom. On the drive home, I ponder something Hogpatrol mentioned about sorting bullets and seating depth being so critical. I had admitted I was having some trouble seating my bullets consistently. I'd carefully set up for 2.172" at the ogive. My next rounds come out at 2.175, 2.173, 2.171, 2.174, etc., using a Whidden die. My seater should be contacting the bullet in the same place and pushing the bullet into the same place, no matter the differences of the length of the bearing surface, yes? I'm going to start sorting my bullets but my logic is failing me. Input please?

I have a thousand Berger 130 Hunting VLDs in the drawer.
I'm using my cheap bullets until I get some more experience.
Sierra 123, for now, over 39.3 H4350. No turn neck chamber.

 

[gotcha]

Have you tried Lapua scenars ? .......................... I only use the 123 grainer in my 6.5X47L but I find them to be very consistent in weight and dimension.

 

[ShootDots]

If you are using the 123 Scenar, try Varget with charge weights from 36.8 to 38.0 in 0.20 increments. Those 130 Hunting VLD's are fantastic. Try them INTO the lands 12 thousandths with Varget and go 36.6 to 37.8grs. In either case in one of those charge weight ranges you will find an excellent load!

 

[Sniper338]

Im no expert, but it kind of sounds like you load developed what you were shooting at 100 yards and not 300 4 or 500. Good load at 100, but falls apart further out..

Just a guess, nothing more..

 

[joshb]

No, I don't have any Scenars. Maybe I'll grab some, thanks. I spent the last 2 hours going over everything. I cleaned and reset my seating die. I've been using a .288 bushing, giving me 3-4 thousands neck tension. Might be too much and causing my seating problem. I'm going to order a .289 and .290. I anneal every cycle. Meanwhile, I'll start sorting bullets.

 

[ShootDots]

No, I don't have any Scenars. Maybe I'll grab some, thanks. I spent the last 2 hours going over everything. I cleaned and reset my seating die. I've been using a .288 bushing, giving me 3-4 thousands neck tension. Might be too much and causing my seating problem. I'm going to order a .289 and .290. I anneal every cycle. Meanwhile, I'll start sorting bullets.

Try 1 to 1.5 thousandths neck tension. Also next batch of virgin brass try neck turning about 2.0 thousandths off.. This will clean up 90+ percent of the imperfections.

 

[joshb]

Im no expert, but it kind of sounds like you load developed what you were shooting at 100 yards and not 300 4 or 500. Good load at 100, but falls apart further out..

Just a guess, nothing more..

Yup. Kinda what all the experts say, too. One of the reasons I told my story. I thought I had a "good load". I need to read and shoot more. Been spending too much time in the shop.

 

[NickB1075]

I had issues a while back getting consistent seating depth for my 308 Palma rifle. I tried everything but couldn't figure it out.
So next I checked the bullets and found a 10 to 30 thou difference between bullets. So I went to check the other 500 of the same and again large difference in ogive to base of the bullet. But I noticed there were 3 distinct groups of measured bullets and and within each group they were very uniform.

Long story short now I always check and sorting my long range bullets.

I load develop at 100 and always verify groups at 300. Usually if they are still holding consistent at 300 they will hold up further out.

I also shoot like 10 to 20 shot groups when verifying my loads.

Just my experiences.

Nick

 

[joshb]

Try 1 to 1.5 thousandths neck tension. Also next batch of virgin brass try neck turning about 2.0 thousandths off.. This will clean up 90+ percent of the imperfections.

That was the other thought, instead of new bushings. I bought a .288 and a .287 with the dies. I figure my next step is to cast my chamber. The barrel is unmarked, except for the makers name. I bought the original gun used with 200 pieces of brass used in the gun. Supposed to be a no turn neck. I want to know the clearance I have, just to be sure before I turn any.

 

[ShootDots]

That was the other thought, instead of new bushings. I bought a .288 and a .287 with the dies. I figure my next step is to cast my chamber. The barrel is unmarked, except for the makers name. I bought the original gun used with 200 pieces of brass used in the gun. Supposed to be a no turn neck. I want to know the clearance I have, just to be sure before I turn any.

Oh I see! That's precisely why I buy my own reamers. I can control the neck and freebore the way I want..

 

[joshb]

I had issues a while back getting consistent seating depth for my 308 Palma rifle. I tried everything but couldn't figure it out.
So next I checked the bullets and found a 10 to 30 thou difference between bullets. So I went to check the other 500 of the same and again large difference in ogive to base of the bullet. But I noticed there were 3 distinct groups of measured bullets and and within each group they were very uniform.

Long story short now I always check and sorting my long range bullets.

I load develop at 100 and always verify groups at 300. Usually if they are still holding consistent at 300 they will hold up further out.

I also shoot like 10 to 20 shot groups when verifying my loads.

Just my experiences.

Nick

Thanks, Nick. I'm still having a problem with bearing surface differences affecting seating depth. The seater stem pushes on the same spot of every bullet to the same depth, with a quality die of course. How could a difference in length of the bullet affect that? I'm stuck!

 

[joshb]

Oh I see! That's precisely why I buy my own reamers. I can control the neck and freebore the way I want..

Yeah, well...."It was a good deal" I'm learning. I'm just a slow learner.

 

[ShootDots]

Yeah, well...."It was a good deal" I'm learning. I'm just a slow learner.

I was a VERY slow learner! LOL!!! You and probably most everyone else too!

 

[potatoe]

One novelty tool I'd be looking at is a Bob Green bullet comparator. From the wise advice of the guys that shoot well here like you said is that seating depth is a big deal on paper when trying to compete at their level. I've tried sinclair ogive gauges but I've never got them to work as well as I'd like on VLD's and I don't know how the big boys sort their bullets but Bob's tool is the most appealing to me. Load development made at the range you mean to shoot seems to be the thing to do but I've never been able to prove/proof longer range loads vs sub 300yd loads though. A lab radar and target cam would also be your friend I'd guess. I'd be your friend if you'd take me to Atglen also

 

[Tim Singleton]

I anneal every cycle.

This could be the issue. If not done properly you will get inconsistent seating depth due to softer and harder necks
Like someone else said go a little lighter on the tension and try some virgin brass and don't anneal for a few firings and see how it goes

 

[/VH]

joshb,

Did ole hogpatrol sit over at a distance, eating popcorn and eyeballing you?

I agree with ShootDots; less "tension/interference" seems to help seating force to be consistent, as does more uniform neck wall thickness. At least in my experience, they seem to help. Once I had fairly consistent seating force sorted out, then, sorting bullets with a Bob Green comparator really helped me a lot to hit my targeted head to ogive length in a single pass through the seater die.

 

[joshb]

One novelty tool I'd be looking at is a Bob Green bullet comparator. From the wise advice of the guys that shoot well here like you said is that seating depth is a big deal on paper when trying to compete at their level. I've tried sinclair ogive gauges but I've never got them to work as well as I'd like on VLD's and I don't know how the big boys sort their bullets but Bob's tool is the most appealing to me. A lab radar and target cam would also be your friend I'd guess. I'd be your friend if you'd take me to Atglen also

There was one of those for sale here a little while ago. I'll keep my eyes open, thanks. I'll take you up to Atglen! Stay in touch. I'd be glad to have you as a guest. I figured you'd still be sleep deprived and knee deep in diapers! How's that going?

 

[potatoe]

Ohh man, it just a blast. They are walking and chatting up a storm. They are more fun and joy than I could have ever hoped for. I get out every month. . .I was out yesterday and get to go out again on monday. Just like about everyone here I have 1-3 more builds going on and about to give my old stand by rifle a face lift just because I'm bored/dumb. You know how this game is its hard to leave anything alone.

Here's the duo

 

[NickB1075]

Thanks, Nick. I'm still having a problem with bearing surface differences affecting seating depth. The seater stem pushes on the same spot of every bullet to the same depth, with a quality die of course. How could a difference in length of the bullet affect that? I'm stuck!

I can only assume that the ogive was contacting the seating stem at different locations. I contacted Sierra about it and they asked me to send a sample of bullets to them for testing. They contacted me a few days later and agreed the bullets were out of spec. They then replaced the bullets I had purchased and sent me an additional 1000. For the inconvenience they said. They even went as far as replacing the stock of the supplier I got them from.

I don't think this was a normal case but it did make me open my eyes to the importance of inspecting the products we spend so much money on.

Nick

 

[joshb]

Ohh man, it just a blast. They are walking and chatting up a storm. They are more fun and joy than I could have ever hoped for. I get out every month. . .I was out yesterday and get to go out again on monday. Just like about everyone here I have 1-3 more builds going on and about to give my old stand by rifle a face lift just because I'm bored/dumb. You know how this game is its hard to leave anything alone.

Here's the duo

Wow! Too cute for words!! Enjoy! Sooner than you think, they'll be teenagers. That'll give you some gray hairs!! Book the convent early! They have a long waiting list!

I'm still building a couple myself but I'm not buying any more for a while. I've been talking to Ggmac about some "old collectibles", but I have enough bench guns for now. It is addictive. I like building them as much as shooting them.