Brass changes with expander die

[Jody Simcox]

Started working on 100 pieces of once fired Nosler brass (270) yesterday. All had been loaded into my gun 1 at a time and never hit the ground when extracted, then carefully wiped down and placed in ammo box. I cleaned the primer pockets and ran a brush into the neck, but did not tumble brass. Proceeded to lube with die wax and neck size. Next I measured 20 cases and trimmed all 100 to the shortest length- 2.510". Chamfer/deburred case mouths. I then ran all cases through an expander die with a .275 mandrel. Very careful to keep mandrel waxed as well as apply wax to case mouths. I found that I had to apply wax to mandrel about every 5 cases (every 10 when brass was new). Heard an awful lot of squeaking while expanding. Never heard that on first go 'round. Also, all of my brass now measures 2.505"-2.507". Anything I should have done differently during or prior to expanding?

Just planning on wiping down cases with a clean rag and maybe a little alcohol, then swabbing inside of necks with alcohol on a q-tip-- am I making a mistake by not tumbling at all? Exterior of my brass looks brand new...

Thanks for any and all comments- I've only loaded a couple of hundred rounds and that was all new brass which required very little prep.

 

[butchlambert]

I thought 270 used a .277 size bullet. A .275 mandrell shouldn't be needed. It appears that your neck sizer is over sizing. If you are concerned, but a bushing die and control your sizing.

 

[Jody Simcox]

Standard Forster neck sizing die... I am gonna get neck honed, but not until I believe I've finished with load development for this rifle (just in case I end up changing bullets is the reason for delaying this). Using the expander to keep from jamming my bullet in the case so tightly is my thinking. Use of an expander die and mandrel also seems to be a pretty common practice...

 

[butchlambert]

Standard Forster neck sizing die... I am gonna get neck honed, but not until I believe I've finished with load development for this rifle (just in case I end up changing bullets is the reason for delaying this). Using the expander to keep from jamming my bullet in the case so tightly is my thinking. Use of an expander die and mandrel also seems to be a pretty common practice...

I use an expander only when going to a larger diameter caliber. I fireform without a bullet first before expanding if necessary. The more you have to expand, they more it pushes your neck back. I do use bushing dies and don't have your problem.

 

[gotcha]

Standard Forster neck sizing die... I am gonna get neck honed, but not until I believe I've finished with load development for this rifle (just in case I end up changing bullets is the reason for delaying this). Using the expander to keep from jamming my bullet in the case so tightly is my thinking. Use of an expander die and mandrel also seems to be a pretty common practice...

" I am gonna get neck honed" Good alternate plan to butch's good advice................. No sense waiting, no matter what bullet you use it will be .277" dia. .................... using an expander is common practice but why do 2-step process when with honing you do it all in one pass with excellent concentricity and not over work your necks............... Also it can take as many as three firings before overall length is fully established. Do your load work ups and trim cases only when overall length no longer changes. The cases naturally shorten when you fire form. You didn't say, but assuming this is a hunting rifle (mag fed) I'd go for .003" neck tension

 

[T-shooter]

You may need to get a few close sizes of expander mandrels (maybe a + .001", 0.000" and - .001") because brass doesn't always return to the same size because of it's hardness. Also, the mandrels will have to be a bit larger than the finished size because the brass will spring back. The best results would be if the cases are annealed.

 

[savagedasher]

I don't use expander balls or mandrills whe loading .
I don't know of any case after it it shot a few times that don't get a donut. If you expand a donut it only increases the od on the neck. Expander ball moves the shoulder also .
Larry

 

[fguffey]

Also, all of my brass now measures 2.505"-2.507".

You trimmed and then expanded the case neck; the case shortened .005". Reloaders believe the neck gets thicker and or thinner and I always ask if the neck gets shorter when it is necked up and longer when the neck is necked down. The next time size the neck and then trim.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Expander ball moves the shoulder also .

And I always ask: If the sizer plug moves the shoulder how would a reloader prove it. I am beginning to wonder why reloaders waste their time sizing cases, it seems the case does everything but turn around and jump sideways when shoved into the die.

F. Guffey

 

[Jody Simcox]

" I am gonna get neck honed" Good alternate plan to butch's good advice................. No sense waiting, no matter what bullet you use it will be .277" dia. .................... using an expander is common practice but why do 2-step process when with honing you do it all in one pass with excellent concentricity and not over work your necks............... Also it can take as many as three firings before overall length is fully established. Do your load work ups and trim cases only when overall length no longer changes. The cases naturally shorten when you fire form. You didn't say, but assuming this is a hunting rifle (mag fed) I'd go for .003" neck tension

Gonna get my neck honed based on OD of neck on loaded round-- this measurement could be significantly different for 2 bullets, even if they're both .277 diameter. At least I've found that to be the case with my guns--OD .303 for a 130 gr accubond in Nosler brass , and .307 in 140 gr accubond in Nosler brass. Or am I wrong, and this is just inconsistency in neck wall thickness (I've never done any neck turning)

 

[Jody Simcox]

You trimmed and then expanded the case neck; the case shortened .005". Reloaders believe the neck gets thicker and or thinner and I always ask if the neck gets shorter when it is necked up and longer when the neck is necked down. The next time size the neck and then trim.

F. Guffey

I sized, then trimmed, then expanded... you're saying size, expand, then trim? Just wanna be clear.

 

[fguffey]

I don't know of any case after it it shot a few times that don't get a donut.

And then there is the do-nut, I have cases that have never formed a donut and will never develop a donut, I have cases that were designed to develop donuts, I have formed donuts in cases before I ever fired them; anyhow, after forming the first donut I did a small amount of testing, checking etc., I decided most donuts are formed from bad habits.

I don't know of any case after it is shot a few times that don't get a donut

And if that is true what causes the doughnut what is it that reloaders do not understand about bad habits and forming donuts?





F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Just wanna be clear.

To be clear I assume you forced the expander in to the neck and then pulled it back through. Or you pushed the expander into the neck without contact between the expander plug and case neck when raising the case?

F. Guffey

 

[butchlambert]

If you didn't neck turn, your problem is definitely neck wall thickness.
My brass does not shorten when I fireform without bullets.
Sounds like you need to turn your necks as even off the shelf bullets do not vary .004".

 

[dkhunt14]

I don't use expander balls or mandrills whe loading .
I don't know of any case after it it shot a few times that don't get a donut. If you expand a donut it only increases the od on the neck. Expander ball moves the shoulder also .
Larry

Exactly, thats why you want the donut on the outside and not interfering with the bullet. Matt

 

[dkhunt14]

" I am gonna get neck honed" Good alternate plan to butch's good advice................. No sense waiting, no matter what bullet you use it will be .277" dia. .................... using an expander is common practice but why do 2-step process when with honing you do it all in one pass with excellent concentricity and not over work your necks............... Also it can take as many as three firings before overall length is fully established. Do your load work ups and trim cases only when overall length no longer changes. The cases naturally shorten when you fire form. You didn't say, but assuming this is a hunting rifle (mag fed) I'd go for .003" neck tension

Lots of long range shooters use a mandrel to even out tensions and use different sizes to control tension. Also if not neck turned the inside will be out of round. The secret is to only size enough that the neck mandrel just barely evens them out. Matt

 

[savagedasher]

Exactly, thats why you want the donut on the outside and not interfering with the bullet. Matt

My bullets don't touch the donut they all seat foward of it . That is why I have freebore .
Larry

 

[dkhunt14]

My bullets don't touch the donut they all seat foward of it . That is why I have freebore .
Larry

It still restricts gas flow just like when you put a muffler on your headers. I don't want it inside period. Matt

 

[Jody Simcox]

To be clear I assume you forced the expander in to the neck and then pulled it back through. Or you pushed the expander into the neck without contact between the expander plug and case neck when raising the case?

F. Guffey

I'm a bit confused now... the expander mandrel definitely made contact with case neck going down, and required some effort on the upstroke. That wasn't the case with virgin brass, thus, the original post...which has turned into a donut discussion

 

[savagedasher]

It still restricts gas flow just like when you put a muffler on your headers. I don't want it inside period. Matt

Restrictions on exhaust increase veloicity that the new trick with exhaust on race cars . Just got a set 4 2 into 1 . Larry