6 Dasher False Shoulder Setting Technique?

[DanSavage]

I don't get it fguffy, when my brass has been fired so much that the bolt closes hard, I run the brass in the body die which seems to move the shoulder back so the brass then chambers good in the rifle again.

Are you just implying that the bump die just reforms the shoulder and the brass becomes longer?

 

[Fred B.]

He is saying the composite metallic cartridge we call brass is actually transferring some metal from body portion to the section above it that we call shoulder, in turn, the shoulder part transfer some metal (proportional to received amount) to straight section called neck. Therefore we are not actually pushing the shoulder down or the base up. Just moving metal from body to neck.
I think.

 

[Richard Coody]

I wish i could draw you a diagram . Picture a case sitting in the chamber. When you resized that case and bumped the shoulder you created a gap 1 to 2 thousands between the shoulder of the case and chamber. When that case is fired that brass goes plastic and forms to the chamber wall. That brass forming the junction of the shoulder and case wall is moved from the shoulder to the case wall. The brass forming the junction of the case shoulder and neck moves from shoulder to neck filling in that 1 to 2 thousands gap. When you resize that case you are moving that same 1 to 2 thousands of brass in the opposite direction.

Now over time the brass flows up into the neck due to this repeated process. That is why you have to trim. That thicker shoulder brass migrating into the neck is what causes the dreaded donut. That is why they always suggest that when you turn necks that you cut into the shoulder just a little. Thins that brass that will one day soon become neck.

 

[KMart]

View attachment 1015757 He is saying the composite metallic cartridge we call brass is actually transferring some metal from body portion to the section above it that we call shoulder, in turn, the shoulder part transfer some metal (proportional to received amount) to straight section called neck. Therefore we are not actually pushing the shoulder down or the base up. Just moving metal from body to neck.
I think.

Lets not assume to know what Guffey is saying until he comes on and says what he is saying. What Richard says in post 55, and what you are saying here, is what most of us call bumping. Guffey has his own definitions. There are more than one way to describe most all things. We just don't know which translator he is using.

 

[dmoran]

Regardless of what @fguffey tries to mislead the forums with, here is just one example that shoulders do move:





Not only did the shoulder move in position a 0.100", as clearly seen by the case marks, it also moved in shoulder angle <> from 30-degrees to 40-degrees.

@fguffey often states: "I am the only one".... and I suggest to let him be just that !.!
Donovan

 

[Richard Coody]

Guffey talks in riddles. There is validity to his statements but only he know what it is.

I read his stuff with humor in mind. Gives me a chuckle. If it bothers you you should put him on ignore.

 

[Richard Coody]

Regardless of what @fguffey tries to mislead the forums with, here is just one example that shoulders do move:


View attachment 1015769


Not only did the shoulder move in position, as is clearly seen by the case marks, it also moved/changed in shoulder angle from from 30-degrees to 40-degrees.

@fguffey often states: "I am the only one".... and I suggest to let him be just that !.!
Donovan

Nice false shoulder. I use the same technique forming my 6mm AR brass. No doubt you moved that shoulder. Now it is mostly neck brass forming the shoulder. That 40 degree shoulder out of neck brass makes donuts much less likely.

The.old shoulder brass is now case wall.

 

[Joe Salt]

Donovan I have a Question for you? I have a Dasher with a .266 neck, I turn the necks to 10. thou. run the case up into my bushing bump die with a .260 bushing. Load with 34 gr. R-15 with an 80 grain bullet with 450 primers and fire form. They seem to be forming just fine. So is this wrong?
Oh and no I don't have misfires like some people told me I would have. The fire form rifle is 1 thou. under size of my match gun. Seems to shoot great after the one fire forming.
So I guess what I'm asking is false shoulder the only right way?

Joe Salt

 

[Joe Salt]

So if this is working I'm not wrong, when I was doing the false shoulder I was getting 3 thou. less blow out in the shoulder. So it seems to work so that's one less step I need .

Joe Salt

 

[fguffey]

When you resize that case you are moving that same 1 to 2 thousands of brass in the opposite direction.

Richard Cody thanks for making the effort; but that is not what happens. Before the shoulder on the fired case makes contact with the shoulder in the die the shoulder moves forward when the case body is sized. It is assumed the shoulder is moved back when the shoulder of the case contacts the shoulder of the die, it doesn't.

For all of you reloading/case forming geniuses it should be simple enough; prove you can move the shoulder back, prove you can bump the shoulder back and then there is that part I claim: I claim it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has full body support. And then there are all of the reloaders that clam they are case formers: How can they claim to be case formers when they do not know or understand what happens when the case is formed. For years and years I have claimed I form cases, I claimed I formed LC 30/06 match cases to 308 W for bench rest rifles because the owners of the bench rest rifles were claiming the necks were too loose in the chamber. I did not have to ask about accuracy. When I formed the 30/06 LC Match cases to 308 W I tighten the neck of the 308 W .006". HOW? The 30/06 shoulder did not move back, part f the 30/06 case body became part of the shoulder of the 308 W and part of the shoulder became part of the neck.

It is possible to shorten a case from the shoulder to the case head, it is a mistake to assume the shoulder moves back; the shoulder on the sized case is not the same shoulder the reloader started with, again, part of the old shoulder becomes part of the of the neck and for those that can keep up part of the case body became part of the new shoulder. This is not the first time you have read this but you will have to consider there is truth in it.

One more time, prove you can move the shoulder back with a full length sizing die that has full length case body support. Riddle? I say you can not move the shoulder back, I say you can not bump the shoulder, you insist you can; and I ask HOW? Again, I can shorten a case from the shoulder to the case head, I can not move the shoulder back because the shoulder on the sized case is not the same shoulder I started with. And then there are artifacts, I accused an eBay seller of forming 8mm57 cases from 30/06 surplus blank cases, because of artifacts on the formed cases I knew he was using blanks. I thought that was something the buyer should know.

Again, there was this silly story about the firing pin driving the primer, bullet, case and powder forward to the shoulder of the chamber before busting the primer, I could say think about that but suggesting someone think about it has never worked before. If the case was driven forward to the shoulder of the chamber how would I prove it? If the case was not driven forward how would I prove it? I say 'how could I prove it' because I do not believe reloaders understand the question.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

So I guess what I'm asking is false shoulder the only right way?

The only correct way? No, I measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face, after determining the length of the chamber I form cases to fit and then fire. Advantage? I save a trip to the range. And then there is the problem for reloaders and case former that have no source for cases. I started forming cases for the 30 Gibbs, problem, when using 30/06 cases the case shortened from .035" to .045" in the forming and firoing process so I went to 280 Remington cases. The 280 Remington case is .041" longer from the end of the neck to the case head than the 30/06. Advantage? The 30 Gibbs has a short neck, I want all the bullet hold I can get so I choose to use longer cases. And later came R-P with cylinder brass, R-P sold straight wall cases for the 35 Whelen that were 2.650" long from the case mouth to the case head.

Remember, When forming cases the neck is pulled back when the case body and shoulder form. Reloaders have had trouble understand why their cases shortened when fired, they should hope the case shortens because? if it did not shorten in length the case stretched between the case head and case body.

F. Guffey

 

[Richard Coody]

Actually guffey that is exactly what i said

When the case is fired part of the shoulder becomes case wall and part of the neck becomes shoulder

When the case is sized part of the case wall becomes shoulder and part of the shoulder becomes neck.

Now.due to this cycle brass migrates to the neck. The reason you have to trim and as that thicker shoulder brass migrates into the neck you get.donuts.

Too bad you can't speak in plain english. Is english your first language? Maybe that.can explain you problem.

 

[fguffey]

Too bad you can't speak in plain english. Is english your first language? Maybe that.can explain you problem.

Richard Cody, are you that desperate for attention? You claim "that is exactly what you said", there are a few members that are good at searching, so? Now they want to know when you said it. If you had said it before and reloaders on this forum took you seriously they would understand they can not move the shoulder back and they can not bump the shoulder. I understand it sounds cute when reloaders repeat these terms over and over.

F. Guffey

 

[DJSBRS]

Richard Cody, are you that desperate for attention? You claim "that is exactly what you said", there are a few members that are good at searching, so? Now they want to know when you said it. If you had said it before and reloaders on this forum took you seriously they would understand they can not move the shoulder back and they can not bump the shoulder. I understand it sounds cute when reloaders repeat these terms over and over.

F. Guffey

How would you turn a 6 BRX Crone 30º into a 6 Dasher 40º without moving the shoulder?

DJ

DJ's Brass Service
205-461-4680

 

[Richard Coody]

Richard Cody, are you that desperate for attention? You claim "that is exactly what you said", there are a few members that are good at searching, so? Now they want to know when you said it. If you had said it before and reloaders on this forum took you seriously they would understand they can not move the shoulder back and they can not bump the shoulder. I understand it sounds cute when reloaders repeat these terms over and over.

F. Guffey

See you play with semantics. You most certainly can change the location of the shoulder in relation to the case head. You can change that location in either direction. Now what you can't do is move the brass that is creating the existing shoulder. That old shoulder will either become case wall or neck. And the new shoulder will be created out of case wall or neck. But reality is none of this matters except in your silly games

 

[DanSavage]

I guess I should lube the shoulder then,, I haven't been doing that and I don't need to trim when all done.

Why?

 

[6MMsteve]

Richard Cody, are you that desperate for attention? You claim "that is exactly what you said", there are a few members that are good at searching, so? Now they want to know when you said it. If you had said it before and reloaders on this forum took you seriously they would understand they can not move the shoulder back and they can not bump the shoulder. I understand it sounds cute when reloaders repeat these terms over and over.

F. Guffey

 

[6MMsteve]

Richard Cody, are you that desperate for attention? You claim "that is exactly what you said", there are a few members that are good at searching, so? Now they want to know when you said it. If you had said it before and reloaders on this forum took you seriously they would understand they can not move the shoulder back and they can not bump the shoulder. I understand it sounds cute when reloaders repeat these terms over and over.

F. Guffey

 

[6MMsteve]

Richard Cody, are you that desperate for attention? You claim "that is exactly what you said", there are a few members that are good at searching, so? Now they want to know when you said it. If you had said it before and reloaders on this forum took you seriously they would understand they can not move the shoulder back and they can not bump the shoulder. I understand it sounds cute when reloaders repeat these terms over and over.

F. Guffey

lawn mower fer sale

 

[DanSavage]

I started reading this thread because I have my first dasher in the works and I need to gain some knowledge.

Now to get back on topic I have a question.

Do you guy's using the false shoulder using say a .284 expander have any issues running the neck up into a .267 or .268 bushing?

I am assuming that it may cause the mushrooming affect,, no big deal just work things until you can feel the case good while closing the bolt.