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Fast powder in 308

As long as that can be done within safe pressure limits. The reason for using slower powders is that they tend to spread the pressure curve out more, with not so rapid a pressure rise. Testing the theory at the extreme would be using 40 gn of Bullseye behind a 180+ gn bullet. The results would be spectacular and probably somewhat bloody. So, as long as the reloader takes into account the peak pressure, including temperature sensitivity issues, and stays under the maximums, things should be good.

I have been and always will be a safe reloader.

It is implicit on a website such as this, that reloading would be handled 'within safe pressure limits'. Why would any of us allow anything otherwise? All you need to do is reference standard data in order to determine that faster powders are used when bullet weights in a specific cartridge are increased towards the maximum weight. In most situations, you cannot get enough of the slow powder into the case to be of any use competitively.

This is an advanced website with forums where many experts often explain in detail, many of the vargaries of both reloading and shooting. With that audience in mind, I did not feel the need to explore the irrational use of pistol or shotgun powders as a part of the explanation. All it would serve is to make that explanation much longer than necessary. Why you would choose to reply with this form of extreme information is beyond me. Rarely, if ever, do we have to qualify our remarks with the extremes in order to cover our butts with other responders.

Regards.
 
The powders useful in any given cartridge are well documented in reloading data throughout the many manuals. When data is available in the manuals it is relatively easy to choose a powder that suits an individual need. For most uses you should never exceed a maximum charge listed for your components in a manual. If you can't find data using the same components then at least you have a safe starting point from which to proceed. I always recommend a manual from the folks who make your bullets and your powder. When you find discrepancies look at the differences in the components and bear that in mind. Some cases have less room and need lighter loads to keep from gong over pressure and some bullets are harder or tougher and need less powder to prevent high pressures. Seating bullets closer to the lands builds pressures that rise faster than loads that are seated farther away. If you are a novice to reloading and still learning about the components you are using then you are better served to look at the manuals that list the components you are using. Reloading is about experimentation but learn first about your components and techniques and then experiment in an informed manner.
 
Just because John Doe is using powder XYZ DOES NOT mean that XYZ powder is going to produce a winning score for Joe Blow! Joe Blow has experimented with and tried powder XYZ but lo and behold the best performance with his particular rifle is delivered by using a powder not normally considered by the majority of shooters! Rifles are like people; all different and unless adequate testing is completed the best results probably won't be attained!

Your post made me think of Dan Newberry's OCW system. He said not every kid likes brussel sprouts, but they all like ice cream! There are loads out there that will work in almost every gun, the bitch of it is finding it:rolleyes:
 
I just want to comment on using a burn rate chart to select powders. It has been said many times in many places, but so far not in this thread. The 1,2,3,4,5... list of powder burn rates does not give you any indication at all how big a jump there is between powders. For instance 1 and 2 may be nearly identical in burn rate while 3 might be considerably slower, and so on and so on. I prefer the VV and ADI burn charts that give a general burn rate relative to all the other powders on the list. THIS IS BY NO MEANS A POWDER SUBSTITUTION LIST! It just gives you an idea what may be appropriate powders to experiment with using safe reloading practices. When powders were scarce, it helped me a lot finding something else to work up with.

edit: western/ramshot also lists their burn rate this way. Their warning at the bottom says it puts the powders in certain performance envelopes, not substitutions.
 
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All you need to do is reference standard data in order to determine that faster powders are used when bullet weights in a specific cartridge are increased towards the maximum weight.

That brings something to question that I faced this weekend when trying to work up a load for 178 ELD-X's using Varget. That really long bullet when seated .010 off the lands doesn't allow for enough room for much more than 42g of powder in my rifle. 43g of powder is so compressed that it prevents proper seating of the bullet. Given those limitations in powder range I wasn't able to find an accurate node with Varget.

I'm thinking that the faster H4895 might be a better solution
 
185's and H4895 in a 11 twist button rifle CBI barrel 30". It works just fine, and I believe if I had a 1-10 twist I would try the H4895 with 200 20x.


Don Dunlap

I tried H4895 with 200 Hybrids...........went back to Varget. 185 Juggs with H4895 worked great however. Bartlein barreled F/TR rifles
 
I must be completely "Old School". I started with an HBR 308W tight neck in a 700 nearly thirty-five years ago. Six different bolt rifles, all in the 1/2moa out to 600. Haven't seen the need to switch yet. Even the AR-10 stays under 3/4moa out that far.

I subscribe to the "If it ain't broke, you can't fix it..." theory.
 
I must be completely "Old School". I started with an HBR 308W tight neck in a 700 nearly thirty-five years ago. Six different bolt rifles, all in the 1/2moa out to 600. Haven't seen the need to switch yet. Even the AR-10 stays under 3/4moa out that far.

I subscribe to the "If it ain't broke, you can't fix it..." theory.


Ahhh .... but you don't say what bullet weight / powder grade you use!
 
True Grasshopper!

So "Old School", 150gr SMK's length gauged and weighed, and 43.5gr of H4895.
Two other shooters and I bought 10,000 of the bullets from Sierra and measured them all. At the time, Sierra used three point up dies and they all fed into one barrel. We gauged enough to set piles of .000", +.009", and +.014". Imagine the fun of a .000" round set at .010" and the next round that was .014" longer...
 
True Grasshopper!

So "Old School", 150gr SMK's length gauged and weighed, and 43.5gr of H4895.
Two other shooters and I bought 10,000 of the bullets from Sierra and measured them all. At the time, Sierra used three point up dies and they all fed into one barrel. We gauged enough to set piles of .000", +.009", and +.014". Imagine the fun of a .000" round set at .010" and the next round that was .014" longer...

You really have the balls to be calling him grasshopper, but hey, if you can get away with it, more power to ya!:eek:
 
We tend to use slower burning powders in many cartridges than handloaders of a previous generation. In Europe, N140 was the norm in 308 for 150-175gn bullets for many, many years - and is still 'the norm' for many in the UK today. It is in fact, not a particularly 'fast burning' powder for the cartridge. For some reason, Viht's maximum N140 loads are much lower than they used to be, and are in practice so low that they are verging on being 'starting' rather than 'maximum'. European 308 Win shooters have long exceeded factory maximum charge weights - and by a lot at that - even when loading for very short freebore chambers. ie 155gn bullets in Palma 95, Bisley 150 and similar. Factory Remington 700 VS, Police, SPS Varmint etc chambers allow still higher N140 charges.

N150 is common here for bullets heavier than 175gn, and to be honest I've preferred this one for 155gn class handloads too, although MVs are often a bit down.

Going back to the wider question, 308 Win is an exceptionally flexible, 'well balanced' cartridge making it very propellant tolerant. That is because the case capacity matches the bore size very well, and as Bryan Litz has long argued, 150-175gn weight bullets are on the light side for .30-calibre, not 'normal weight' at all. Go back to Ken Waters' 'Pet loads' for the 308 win, the massive 'Update' version of his 308 handloading articles originally published in July 1979 in 'Handloader' Magazine, and you find many propellants that will surprise modern users of the cartridge.

To take 165/168gn bullets, we have (recommended) loads for IMR-3031, WW-748, H322, H4895, IMR-4895, WW-760, IMR-4064, N202, IMR-4320.

180/190gn bullets have all those plus Hodgdon H335 and BL-C(2), also Norma MRP (!), IMR-4831, and WW-785 - a much wider burning rate range than most would consider nowadays. In particular, surprising to modern 'eyes' is the use of Hodgdon H322 (this would be the Scottish ICI Nobel manufactured version then, but today's Australian ADI made stuff won't be very different) and IMR-3031, both regarded as FAR too fast burning for this combination. Yet, the MVs are perfectly respectable - high even for 3031 - and accuracy was regarded as superior with match bullets. I've often thought IMR-3031 an underrated powder in this role and suspect the 'problem' with it hasn't been one of performance rather it being 'old-fashioned' and also poorly suited to mechanical powder measures with its long grain kernels. The relatively fast burning Norma N202 (same thing as Alliant Re15) produced the most accurate overall number of several score combinations under the old 190gn Winchester BT, 40.0gn for 2,361 fps from a 24-inch barrel Winchester Model 70 Target at what was described as 'moderate' pressures. H322 was regarded as an excellent choice for shorter distance match loads, and was also used in the larger case 30-06 in that role by many bolt-rifle shooters in those days. (Too fast burning for the M1 and M14/M1A semi-auto rifle mechanisms where 4064/4895 was the standard.)

KW didn't have any Viht grades in his tests as the marque wasn't being imported into the US in the mid/late 70s.

A final thought on Viht burning rates in the cartridge is that N135, considerably faster burning than N140, is the canister version of Viht's standard powder for 7.62X51mm NATO ball ammunition with 146-150gn FMJBT bullets.


Very nice write up. Thank you.
-Trevor
 
Although I use Varget a lot, I have often gotten better accuracy from 4895 and always try it; especially for short to mid-range. For heavier (175 and up) bullets, I have been using IMR 4451 and like it a lot. High velocities, consistency is good, and it's clean. WH
 
Hi Trevor! I shoot Palma, with 155.5's too.
Used it for five or six years until a Team member turned my head to Benchmark, which is what I've used ever since.
SPClark,
What bullet are you using with the Benchmark? 155's or the heavier ones? Any information would be great. I am intrigued.
 
Been using Berger's 155.5 Fullbore for several years, first with IMR 8208XBR then (since year before last) with Benchmark.

Got some 155 Hybrids coming next week. Tried 'em w/ the IMR & preferred the 155.5's. We'll be seeing if Benchmark improves anything; I see less vertical @ distance with Benchmark than the IMR stuff, which was better than Varget & much more readily available.
 
Still trialling Benchmark 8208 with Berger 155.5's. Started at 43.5gr and moved up incrementally to 45 gr in Lapua palma brass. Having difficulty getting it to shoot as well as 44.5 gr H4895 that I use in large primer brass, it might be seating depth that I need to test further now. With H4895 group size is fine at 10 thou jump, verified by testing. Maybe the harmonics with Benchmark result in the need for more jump, or possible jam, in my 1:12 barrel, 0.298 x .3075.
 

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