To flute or not to

[IdahoSharpshooter]

Rifleman700,

if you had some serious illness, would you opt for a procedure that had this miniscule amount of testing?

There was no established criteria, and no real protocols for the testing. A one mile per hour wind would have moved the poi farther. And there is no real means of timing shots with the wind.
I do not know if you ever read Precision Shooting Magazine back in the old days. Merrill Martin was a wealthy man in the Bay area. Machinery Manufacturer. He had the only serious repeatable method of tuning in the wind I have ever seen or heard of in the early-mid nineties. He bought about a dozen weather stations, complete with wind vane system, and had them linked. It allowed him to test loads with a monitor readout that showed the wind direction and speed along the bullet flight path to 100 yards. It could show wind direction in degrees from 1-360 degrees, and mph in .1 increments.

The only other true testing was done about the same time, in the famous "Houston Warehouse". There, they only tested to see accuracy in a true Zero Condition.

The only valid comparison has to be done indoors, like they do at Picatinny Arsenal in their underground test facility. Otherwise there are too many unquantifiable variables.

Until somebody wins the Lottery (and I volunteer) and can put about half a million dollars and a year to test indoors; I'm still pretty much standing with Bartlein and Kreiger on the fluting issue.
I have a barrel on order with Bartlein, and it will be fluted.

This has been a good thread. I am going to one of AB's Seminars, and I intend to ask Brian about the fluting and see what he says these days.

Rich

 

[ImBIllT]

In defense of dmoran, he did mention that he wouldn't flute a buttoned barrel. I was simply pointing out that those who have had good experience with fluting cut rifled barrels post manufacture, are not performing a test that applies to a buttoned or forged barrel.

 

[JRS]

"In the late seventies there were a group of shooters visiting our barrel shop got into a discussion as to why a fluted barrel wouldn't shoot. They had been tried and never worked. You never saw one at a match. As a challenge, my brother made up two barrels and fluted them. We put one on Pat's bench rest rifle and gave one to a friend (Harold Broughton). Pat went to the IBS Nationals that year, set two world records and won the nationals. Harold went to the NBRSA Nationals that year and won the Nationals".

Gale McMillan

McMillan barrels were button rifled barrels. The late Skip Otto set a world record using a Shilen barrel (button rifled) that he fluted. A good barrel is a good barrel, fluted, or not.

 

[CTK]

I have seen many spiral fluted barrels. I do not have a shred of evidence that this is a bad idea but it sure looks like it to me. Makes me think of the barrel flexing like a Slinky.

 

[Down South]

"In the late seventies there were a group of shooters visiting our barrel shop got into a discussion as to why a fluted barrel wouldn't shoot. They had been tried and never worked. You never saw one at a match. As a challenge, my brother made up two barrels and fluted them. We put one on Pat's bench rest rifle and gave one to a friend (Harold Broughton). Pat went to the IBS Nationals that year, set two world records and won the nationals. Harold went to the NBRSA Nationals that year and won the Nationals".

Gale McMillan

McMillan barrels were button rifled barrels. The late Skip Otto set a world record using a Shilen barrel (button rifled) that he fluted. A good barrel is a good barrel, fluted, or not.

I tend to be in this camp as well. I saw several fluted barrels hammer at 600 & 1000 yard matches.

 

[XTR]

If two barrels tested is not a large enough sample then what makes 20 better? Where is it written that 20 is the magic number. This kind of talk can go on and on. There will always be somebody that wants more samples because they are unwilling to concede a data point.

There are statistical tests to prove when the data set provides statistically valid data. In my my world the Student T or the Wilcoxon Rank Sum.

The short answer is that in most test scenarios like we are discussing you're probably going to need about seven.

As to whether or not to flute, I do it if I want a barrel lighter.

 

[Eddie Harren]

Call Shilen and ask them to flute one of their barrels for you. Call them and tell them that you have one of their barrels, that you had fluted, and it won't shoot. Please post their response for all of us to read.

 

[L.Sherm]

I have been following this post to see all the feedback and opinions. I am just gonna throw out my opinion and only 1 experience that i have with a fluted barrel for what it's worth. First i believe the steel and stress relieving have alot to do with whether a barrel that is fluted be it cut or button whether it shoots good before or after the fluting process. My one and only barrel on a 20 cal thats fluted, all though not really deep shot a 3 shot group at 100 yds that was .079 so thats not shabby. Just my 2 cents

 

[JRS]

Call Shilen and ask them to flute one of their barrels for you. Call them and tell them that you have one of their barrels, that you had fluted, and it won't shoot. Please post their response for all of us to read.

The same can be said for the other barrel makers. Although most of them offer the service (fluting), if the work isn't performed by them, and something doesn't work out when having someone else flute it, they aren't going to stand behind their product. I would imagine changing dimensions by re-conturing their barrel would also void their guarantee.

 

[Eddie Harren]

The same can be said for the other barrel makers. Although most of them offer the service (fluting), if the work isn't performed by them, and something doesn't work out when having someone else flute it, they aren't going to stand behind their product. I would imagine changing dimensions by re-conturing their barrel would also void their guarantee.

Like I said, call them and ask, then post their reply here.
Your reply is speculation. Their reply would be scripture.

 

[JRS]

Like I said, call them and ask, then post their reply here.
Your reply is speculation. Their reply would be scripture.

Which part is speculation, Eddie? Skip Otto used Shilen barrels religiously, and fluted each and every one. He also realized by doing so, Shilen would void the warranty.

 

[Eddie Harren]

Which part is speculation, Eddie? Skip Otto used Shilen barrels religiously, and fluted each and every one. He also realized by doing so, Shilen would void the warranty.

You didn't bother to mention that in your statement.
I know you didn't bother to call Schneider on the USMC barrel issue and now you won't call Shilen on this issue. Phony info is phony info!

 

[JRS]

You didn't bother to mention that in your statement.
I know you didn't bother to call Schneider on the USMC barrel issue and now you won't call Shilen on this issue. Phony info is phony info!

I have no reason to call Shilen, the information is on their website, and I am well aware that they don't flute barrels. If I purchased a barrel from any of the makers that offer fluting, I would have them flute it. That way, the guarantee is intact. If I have someone outside that company flute the barrel for me, the guarantee is gone.

 

[Eddie Harren]

I have no reason to call Shilen, the information is on their website, and I am well aware that they don't flute barrels. If I purchased a barrel from any of the makers that offer fluting, I would have them flute it. That way, the guarantee is intact. If I have someone outside that company flute the barrel for me, the guarantee is gone.

Very well. I won't argue with you. As usual you are correct and everyone else is wrong. Good Shooting and Good Bye!

 

[oneraggedhole]

Stiffer is better for harminics. Stiffer is typically more accurate. The fluting increases stiffness not by allowing a larger contour but through the extra bracing the sides of the cut produce by milling the trough. Just like a piece of round stock with a hole through the center will take more torsional stress than the exact same piece without the hole. I don't feel that fluting will hurt accuracy in a cut rifled barrel but if you slug a button barrel before and after fluting most likely you'll find spots in the bore that got big due to it relieving itself.

 

[Richard Coody]

Stiffer is better for harminics. Stiffer is typically more accurate. The fluting increases stiffness not by allowing a larger contour but through the extra bracing the sides of the cut produce by milling the trough. Just like a piece of round stock with a hole through the center will take more torsional stress than the exact same piece without the hole. I don't feel that fluting will hurt accuracy in a cut rifled barrel but if you slug a button barrel before and after fluting most likely you'll find spots in the bore that got big due to it relieving itself.

Lets see.

Neck sizing vs full length sizing
Beam vs digital
Flute or not flute
Etc.....

None of these arguments will ever be resolved.

It is America. The land of the free. Do what you like but don't try to convince me you are right.

 

[oneraggedhole]

Agree completely !

 

[oldroper]

I have 2-30-06 one Rem action other Win. Gunsmith order a barrel from Shilen and it's good barrel. I've known for years about Shilen not fluting and I've never seen any point in calling them and it wouldn't stop me from ordering one. Win rifle gunsmith order a Bartlein fluted and those are the
barrels I wanted. I know Krieger min on fluting so why would I call them and order # 2 fluted.

Kind of funny hearing Skip's name again. I purchased Skip's HB rifle build Teddy action and got 3 barrels with it also brass.

 

[dmoran]

Stiffer is better for harminics. Stiffer is typically more accurate. The fluting increases stiffness not by allowing a larger contour but through the extra bracing the sides of the cut produce by milling the trough. Just like a piece of round stock with a hole through the center will take more torsional stress than the exact same piece without the hole. I don't feel that fluting will hurt accuracy in a cut rifled barrel but if you slug a button barrel before and after fluting most likely you'll find spots in the bore that got big due to it relieving itself.

Based from your reply, would like to ask you some questions:
- is it your own contention that higher/faster harmonic frequency is better then lower/slower?
- is it your own contention that a straight contour barrel is more accurate then a tapered counter?
- is it your own contention that 1.450" diameter barrel is more accurate then a 1.250"?
Will stop with those 3....Thanks
Donovan

 

[oneraggedhole]

I feel taper would reduce harmonics to a degree but the larger straight would also soak up a ton of harmonics.. if anything the harmonic frequency in a tapered barrel would tighten up as it went towards the muzzle where it shrinks diameter, as a straight blank would remain constant through the length of the tube.
This is solely my belief and have no testing or any way to test this. This is just what I've learned through 15 or so years in the steel business and machining.

Ps: static cling a little talc powder in an even coat from breech to muzzle(outside only) and you may be surprised what you may see.