Well I see someone else was utilizing a DOE before I brought it up, LOL.
Horizontal stringing..
- Thread starter long40shot
- Start date
Well I see someone else was utilizing a DOE before I brought it up, LOL.
Very true, but knowing when NOT to shoot is even more important than knowing when TO shoot. The intricacies of shooting at the highest level is not what we're talking about here. IMO, the op would benefit from having anything to help with knowing that the wind didn't switch somewhere down range during a group. As most of us know, it's pretty uncommon in much of the country to have all the flags doing the same thing from the first flag to the last one, even at 100 yards, for very long at a time. Simply having some ribbon at 3-4 places between you and the target will tell you if you shot in a switch, and with practice, will tell much more than that. Ribbon or surveyor tape is far from ideal but is very valuable in showing the big switches. Everyone should do as someone else alluded to earlier..shoot in very different conditions to see just how much the wind really does matter between shots.
Ribbon is a simple and almost free tool that can make a huge difference in groups and save a lot of time and components chasing your tail when doing load work up. Quality flags are far better and are an absolute necessity if shooting competitively...But for someone who has never used them, ribbon is a sure way to at least show the value of knowing what the wind is doing.
As stated by others, if your desire is to obtain <.5" 100 Yd. groups, wind is a BIG issue.
A rifle whichwill shoot, "under 1/2", at 100 Yd., without the shooter paying attention to flags, is capable of a LOT better than 1/2"!
In my experience, via , before/after comparison, though the manufacturer states, no bedding required (actually don't do it), following bedding, rifles stocked with the HS Precision stocks have always shown improved grouping.
The list of potential precision robbing attributes is long, and easily hunted down. The fundamentals of precision: barrels;bullets;bedding. Always bed.
Seating depth: pick a recorded, repeatable location - jam, or, jump - it's just a reference point, and changing only the one variable (bullet location), shoot groups. Move the bullet either toward, or, away from the lands, as your starting point dictates, in a measurable, defined increments, until the rifle shoots it's best.
I like increments of 0.010", and always begin with a "full jam", working away from the lead. (Note: my "full jam" is the length required to cause bullet set-back, or, deeper seating, when the bolt is locked-up). Then, around the best 'spots', will split the increments (frog hairs sometimes matter). SAAMI spec. sometimes works: for best precision, not often.
RG
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Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
Personally, I ignore minor horizontal "stringing" (if that's what you call 3/4-inch horizontal spread) during load development at 100 yards. Since it's seldom dead calm where I shoot, there's always at least a 1/2 MOA wind component. But I concentrate only on holding vertical aim on the bags, and ignore any minor breeze (I skip load testing on really windy days.)
I note POI changes in vertical using Erik Cortina's well-documented method to find a node. At the end of the day I'm much more concerned about minimizing vertical dispersion since I'm a varmint hunter, and miscalculating distance, bullet drop, and vertical hold accounts for far more misses than wind or horizontal dispersion. If my 100-yard groups under light and variable wind conditions are all 1/4" tall and 3/4" wide CTC, it's time to go hunting. If I wanted to dope the breeze I'm pretty sure I could reduce the horizontal to 1/2" or less without much bother, but honestly I've never bothered.
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I note POI changes in vertical using Erik Cortina's well-documented method to find a node. At the end of the day I'm much more concerned about minimizing vertical dispersion since I'm a varmint hunter, and miscalculating distance, bullet drop, and vertical hold accounts for far more misses than wind or horizontal dispersion. If my 100-yard groups under light and variable wind conditions are all 1/4" tall and 3/4" wide CTC, it's time to go hunting. If I wanted to dope the breeze I'm pretty sure I could reduce the horizontal to 1/2" or less without much bother, but honestly I've never bothered.
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What kind of trigger do you have in this rifle??? What is the measured trigger pull???? What are you going to use this rifle for???? This is no doubt going to make some grown men cry, but if you are shooting varmints/woodchucks then forget about wind flags...they are fun to talk about and try to impress on the new guy and it makes you sound so important when doing it...but they are slightly useless for varmint hunting. I mean, what are you going to do??? Go out in the field and set up a bunch of flags around all the groundhog holes??? I have shot many a 1/4" group without the use of any flags of any kind. If your rifle wont hit the target and group the way you need it to at 100 yards without using flags then you probably wont do too good on groundhogs with it either. I am not saying wind flags wont help you be a better shot, I am for sure not saying to try a benchrest match without them, but there is so many other things that I would be looking at first before any flag.
Besides the trigger I have seen bullets do this. I don't know what they are doing to bullets these days, but if I am not shooting Berger's {there might be some others out there that still work} I am not shooting good groups.
Edit: I just read on one of your posts where you have an HS precision stock with the aluminum bedding block....is it also glass bedded??? I really like this stock and have several on 700's I shoot, but I have always had to bed the action for best results. I know you are not supposed to, but I have found this to not be true.
Besides the trigger I have seen bullets do this. I don't know what they are doing to bullets these days, but if I am not shooting Berger's {there might be some others out there that still work} I am not shooting good groups.
Edit: I just read on one of your posts where you have an HS precision stock with the aluminum bedding block....is it also glass bedded??? I really like this stock and have several on 700's I shoot, but I have always had to bed the action for best results. I know you are not supposed to, but I have found this to not be true.
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Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
What OP was asking was should he revert to a much longer bullet jump, and he referenced SAAMI COAL as an arbitrary stake in the ground - seating to SAAMI Max COAL would establish a particular bullet jump in his setup, presumably much larger a jump than he's been testing. I doubt he assumes there's any intrinsic accuracy value in seating at SAAMI Max COAL.
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.........A rifle which
will shoot, "under 1/2", at 100 Yd., without the shooter paying attention to flags, is capable of a LOT better than 1/2"!
That is good to hear...because if it is true and believe me I really want to believe you, then I have several potential world record setters in my safe!!!! This is such great news I will now go and get sloshed on 16 year old Bushmill's in celebration!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and all this time I thought I wasn't a very good shot!!
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
You have proven my point with your post. That being...without flags, you're guessing. I'm out. Ya'll carry on.
Some folks seem to think wind flags are unnecessary and others think they are difficult. The truth is, for accurate shooting they are indispensable. They are a little like learning to play guitar. A person of average dexterity, reasonable intelligence and maybe some sense of rhythm can learn a few chords and be playing some simple tunes in a matter of a few hours, maybe less. But that same person might take many years to become proficient. It's one of the simplest instruments to learn and one of the hardest to master.
Wind flags, both simple and more complex are much the same. You can put out 4 good flags in 100 yards and watch them for a few minutes before shooting. Then by watching them raise and drop and choosing when to shoot one can reduce their group size significantly on the first outing. But mastering the skills it takes to compete in short range benchrest and finish high up the list takes time and some serious study. Not as much as the guitar, but it still takes some effort. The thing is, until a short range shooter spends some time with flags he will never really know what his rifle or he himself is capable of. Sure, you can't use them much in dog towns or hunting whistle pigs, but even then you can have idea of just how much wind drift can affect your bullet having watched flags in practice.
I wish all the folks I compete with would decide they don't need flags and just let me use mine. I would win a lot more matches, maybe all of them
Rick
Wind flags, both simple and more complex are much the same. You can put out 4 good flags in 100 yards and watch them for a few minutes before shooting. Then by watching them raise and drop and choosing when to shoot one can reduce their group size significantly on the first outing. But mastering the skills it takes to compete in short range benchrest and finish high up the list takes time and some serious study. Not as much as the guitar, but it still takes some effort. The thing is, until a short range shooter spends some time with flags he will never really know what his rifle or he himself is capable of. Sure, you can't use them much in dog towns or hunting whistle pigs, but even then you can have idea of just how much wind drift can affect your bullet having watched flags in practice.
I wish all the folks I compete with would decide they don't need flags and just let me use mine. I would win a lot more matches, maybe all of them
Rick
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Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I used to be of the [correct ] opinion that wind flags were meaningless when doing load development. Then I left San Diego, where I was most fortunate to have access to a 100 yd indoor shooting range. After moving to Omaha, NE, where the wind almost never quits, I'm of the [correct ] opinion that if you don't have wind flags out, you're largely wasting your time. Even with wind flags, once the wind conditions reach a certain point, you may still be wasting your time trying to do load development. It's always good to know when to cut your losses and just pack it in if the conditions won't let you effectively visualize changes in your load parameters, as opposed to changes in the wind.
] opinion that wind flags were meaningless when doing load development. Then I left San Diego, where I was most fortunate to have access to a 100 yd indoor shooting range. After moving to Omaha, NE, where the wind almost never quits, I'm of the [correct ] opinion that if you don't have wind flags out, you're largely wasting your time. Even with wind flags, once the wind conditions reach a certain point, you may still be wasting your time trying to do load development. It's always good to know when to cut your losses and just pack it in if the conditions won't let you effectively visualize changes in your load parameters, as opposed to changes in the wind.
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
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Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
Not supposed to? Never heard that one. My 700 HS stocks are bedded. An aluminum bedding block can't mate perfectly to an action any better than a stock of simple wood or composite construction.
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Going back to the mid 80's when HS came out with the Police and the one the Army used on the M-24 {same stock but with the adjustable buttplate} they were advertised in the Brownell's catalog {which is where I bought my first one} and described as "having a cast in aluminum bedding block so there is no need to glass bed the action." many gun writers tested them and after several reached the conclusion that it is better off bedded everyone else started doing it. That stock has been around for a while. Remington still uses them on the 5R and the VSSF. I think the theory was that you could knock off the milling lines and tighten the action hard into the stock. It all sounded good, but it never worked that way for me. The Army just tighten them up snug and let her rip on the M-24...well. at least the ones I saw.
Yep, and I apparently I can guess good enough to hit everything I aim at. What I think is funny about this thread is the guy has a rifle that strings horizontally and multiple people jump immediately on the wind flag theory...as if there could be nothing else simpler going on to cause this very easy to cause problem. Must be the black art magical act of reading the wind...cannot be anything at all going on with the rifle or ammo????? What about the bench or rest and bags??? Cant be those either... so start with the wind?????
Brians356
Silver $$ Contributor
At the very least, one should still bed the back of the recoil lug. And while you're already in there, ...
Actually, I do have a standard 700 VS in 223 Rem that shoots great without bedding, so I never did that one. But if there had been any quirky results, it would have been the first thing to address.
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Occam's razor. The simplest answer is, more often than not, the correct one. BTW- the more you talk, the more you show your ignorance.
Rick
Well, I did say I would probably make some grown men cry...send me your address, I will next day air you a nice warm milk bottle. You can drink it all down, cry it all out and go to sleep and maybe wake up feeling better in the morning. Simplest answer is somebody wants to sell some wind flags.
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