Confusion with Resizing .270 Win R-P Brass

[Conaso]

Not precision by a long shot but...

I have a Rem 700 BDL (1973) in .270 Win; having less than 75 rounds fired through it. Decided to start reloading the ole' girl, so I bought a Hornady Custom Grade 2-die set (546300). Measured the headspace (Hornady) of the 20 fired cases from a box of Remington 130gr Core-Lokt Pointed Soft Point (#R270W2) cartridges. All were headspaces were 2.042," +-.0005. I figured I'd "bump" the case back .002, i.e., 2.040", since this rifle is my only .270 Win. To make a long story short... well lubed, with the ram up to its highest cammed position and the die set all the way to the shell holder then back 1/8 turn, the headspace is 2.045."

The case are lengthening?

I doubled checked my measurements. I then tried the empty cases in the rifle and they easily enter the chamber with finger pressure, bolt closed easily, empty case extracted easily.

Undersized cases that will finally grow into chamber? Or is the headspace in the rifle a little longer than usual? Should I moved the die further down to get 2.040" headspace? I never had a die set I had to pressure down the shell holder.

(Waiting for Hornady .270 (130gr) #2730 Interlock Soft Point to figure COAL.)

 

[LHSmith]

Unless you are using a hot load ( not the case with factory cartridges) it will take more than 1 firing to fully form the case to the chamber. You should not set the shoulder back until the cases fail to chamber easily. Then measure the shoulder to base on a case that just chambers with ease after making micro die adjustments with an appropriate tool and record that number. Best to do this with a stripped bolt.

 

[msinc]

I would suggest to anyone that is going to reload that they get the tools to measure case length and learn how to use them. This is important. The next thing I would ask is what brand of shell holder are you using???? I have some sets of Hornady dies and with mine it seems like they need to have Hornady shell holders to go along with their dies. Also, I have found that the Hornady dies sometimes don't like to be used in conjunction with the Bonanza B-2 Co-Axial press. Probably for the same reason {dimensionally} that they like Hornady shell holders. Caution on too much headspace....it is nothing to play with. Better to be safe 100 times than dead once.

 

[M-61]

How and why did you decide the case shoulder should be 'bumped' at all?

QUOTE: "I figured I'd "bump" the case back .002, i.e., 2.040", since this rifle is my only .270 Win."

You lost me there.

 

[Conaso]

How and why did you decide the case shoulder should be 'bumped' at all?

QUOTE: "I figured I'd "bump" the case back .002, i.e., 2.040", since this rifle is my only .270 Win."

You lost me there.

I guess in my ignorance ... fired cases expand to fill the chamber then reduce in size slightly. Either you neck size for target bolt actions or FL size for hunting bolt actions and autos to ensure rounds feed reliably. Since this is a bolt gun to be used for hunting I would FL size enough to push the should back .002. If it was an auto I'd push the shoulder back .003-.004. I use a Hornady headspace gauge "C" to measure shoulder length.

So, I guess my "knowledge" is faulty.

 

[Conaso]

I would suggest to anyone that is going to reload that they get the tools to measure case length and learn how to use them. This is important. The next thing I would ask is what brand of shell holder are you using???? I have some sets of Hornady dies and with mine it seems like they need to have Hornady shell holders to go along with their dies. Also, I have found that the Hornady dies sometimes don't like to be used in conjunction with the Bonanza B-2 Co-Axial press. Probably for the same reason {dimensionally} that they like Hornady shell holders. Caution on too much headspace....it is nothing to play with. Better to be safe 100 times than dead once.

Hornady #1 shell holder, Pacific/Hornady single stage press.

 

[msinc]

I guess in my ignorance ... fired cases expand to fill the chamber then reduce in size slightly. Either you neck size for target bolt actions or FL size for hunting bolt actions and autos to ensure rounds feed reliably. Since this is a bolt gun to be used for hunting I would FL size enough to push the should back .002. If it was an auto I'd push the shoulder back .003-.004. I use a Hornady headspace gauge "C" to measure shoulder length.

So, I guess my "knowledge" is faulty.

Nothing faulty here...what you are saying is true, you can neck size or you can full length size. FL sizing is probably better for a hunting rifle to help make sure it will feed okay. I don't compete per se, mostly target for fun and hunting. I seldom load that I am not full length sizing. It is important to be able to nail down exactly what the headspace is in your rifle/ammo. Headspace is the difference between the length of the rifles chamber and the length of the resized cases you are putting in it. The only way to nail this difference down is to first measure the exact length of the rifles chamber. Fired cases can give you an idea, but freshly annealed cases wont "spring back" as much as cases that have hardened up over time and from being worked.
For my bolt guns I size right on the rifles chamber length. I sometimes go -.002" for an autoloader and have had zero problems. The thing about headspace that I see is you will shoot the most accurate with zero or within .001-.002" of chamber length. .003-.004" is not unsafe, but I don't find it necessary.

 

[fguffey]

I have some sets of Hornady dies and with mine it seems like they need to have Hornady shell holders to go along with their dies.

I have 2 sets of C&H dies in factory boxes that were made in the '60s. At the time C&H was located in El Monte, California. The instructions on the box says nothing about what brand shell holder is used, C&H recommended the dies be used with a shell holder with the correct height of .125". All of my shell holders have a deck height of .125"; I do have a few that are off, all of the 'off' shell holders were made by Pacific. All of my Pacific shell holders are identical to RCBS shell holders.

F. Guffey

 

[msinc]

I have 2 sets of C&H dies in factory boxes that were made in the '60s. At the time C&H was located in El Monte, California. The instructions on the box says nothing about what brand shell holder is used, C&H recommended the dies be used with a shell holder with the correct height of .125". All of my shell holders have a deck height of .125"; I do have a few that are off, all of the 'off' shell holders were made by Pacific. All of my Pacific shell holders are identical to RCBS shell holders.

F. Guffey

When you say, "deck height" is that from where on the shell holder the case head would sit to the top surface of the shell holder that would touch the bottom of the die???? I haven't measured in comparison my Hornady shell holders in relation to the ones I have made by RCBS, but they are different because once I have a dies set I will have to reset it if I don't have the same shell holder in the press. No matter which one I use in a standard press, it's a whole different ball game when I try to size in a B-2. Not for shell holders of course, but certain dies just don't want to work.

 

[Conaso]

For my bolt guns I size right on the rifles chamber length. I sometimes go -.002" for an autoloader and have had zero problems. The thing about headspace that I see is you will shoot the most accurate with zero or within .001-.002" of chamber length. .003-.004" is not unsafe, but I don't find it necessary.

I bump my ARs .003," my precision rifles I only neck-size, and hunting rifle (1) I intend to bump .002." I base the measurement using the Hornady Headspace Gauge. Other than make a Cerro-Safe cast, I'm not aware of how to measure the chamber.

BTW - I found the Lyman shell holders do not fit the Hornady Handheld Priming Tool. The O.D. of the top part of the Lyman shell holder are too wide to fit inside the Horndady handle.

 

[msinc]

......I base the measurement using the Hornady Headspace Gauge.......

I'm not following you....base the measurement using the Hornady tool compared to what???? Are you saying that you measure the fired brass case, whatever it happens to stretch to in the chamber and size it .002" smaller than whatever that is???? That is not really headspace. That's taking a random case length {at the shoulder} and resizing it shorter and calling that headspace.....that's just .002 shorter than what the case used to be, what about the length the chamber actually is?????? I mean, yeah...you could be dead on, but you really don't know and most probably are not.
The chamber should be checked using headspace gauges. If the bolt closes easy on a go gauge, but does not close on a no-go then you are okay, but to find it to the thousandth you will need to either make a gauge you can grind off .001" at a time until the bare bolt just closes or use shims to find it. Cerrosafe will give you an idea what the chamber is, but I don't believe it was intended to be used to measure chamber length to the thousandth.

 

[Conaso]

Well, I guess I have been doing it all wrong to determine how much to size a fired case other than FL sizing everything except NS for single-shot or bolt-action using the same brass.

Thanks everyone for your input.

Back to research...

 

[Conaso]

Well, I guess I have been doing it all wrong to determine how much to size a fired case other than FL sizing everything except NS for single-shot or bolt-action using the same brass.

Thanks everyone for your input.

Back to research...

Found a partial answer - http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/die-issues-when-bumping-shoulders/

 

[spife7980]

To make a long story short... well lubed, with the ram up to its highest cammed position and the die set all the way to the shell holder then back 1/8 turn, the headspace is 2.045."
Should I moved the die further down to get 2.040" headspace?

Yeah, screw it down until you get them sized to your intended location since youre still off of the shell holder.
If you squeeze the base of the case in it will try and move all of that material straight up. If you dont have adjusted it low enough the shoulders will be free to grow upwards.
Screw it down to where the shoulders hit and all of that growth will be moved into the neck which you will then trim off.

Once (and if) you get it screwed all the way down and they still arent bumping back then you can either try a different shell holder that hopefully has more favorable dimensions (youll have to google that one, I use a forester so I dont use shell holders and thus have no idea) or you can shave it off of the die like your linked article discovered.

 

[msinc]

Well, I guess I have been doing it all wrong to determine how much to size a fired case other than FL sizing everything except NS for single-shot or bolt-action using the same brass.

Thanks everyone for your input.

Back to research...

I might be doing a bad job of trying to explain this...you are not doing anything wrong. IF {in capitals} the rifles chamber is reamed to minimum length, 2.049" and your die is properly made then you should be able to set it to touch the shell holder {maybe even cam over as the die instructions suggest} and have a properly sized case. If those figures are a little off then you will probably still be safe but not as accurate as you could be. You just don't always get a rifle with a minimum chamber and dies that resize to zero when set up like they are supposed to be. I guess my point is that without that exact chamber length you cannot know for certain.
Here is an example of some of my rifles, bear in mind that all of them have a minimum chamber...first one is a 308 Model 700 with a heavy barrel. The fired cases out of this rifle will measure at .001" over minimum if annealed and .002" if they are not annealed. Another 700 with a #1 contour "mountain" barrel kicks then out at .002"-.003", I think maybe because it heats up quicker. My M1A was chambered with a M852 "match" reamer,but it's a semi so the cases typically measure out at .004"-.005" over minimum. I have a Garand in 308 that does not have the match chamber but like the others has a minimum chamber length. The cases when fired in this rifle grow a whopping .006"-.008". The Garand is a fast violent action that is hard on brass, this is why they used to say only load them no more than 3 or 4 times and toss the brass.
Now, all four of these rifles were chambered at minimum length so you can see how different guns with the same size chamber can throw out different fired lengths. The whole point being, because I know my chambers actual size I don't have to measure and guess with cases, I just size them to the length I set depending on which rifle I will shoot them in.

Edit: Looking back at your very first post....you have cases that are way under headspace. 2.049" is minimum chamber length. It would be nice if your rifle was chambered this way, but it could be that plus .004" and still be in spec. In your first post you said your cases were sized to 2.040"??? That is too small, by more than double the safe target size of .004". You can still use this brass and correct it for next time by seating your bullets out to the lands so that the case head maintains contact with the bolt face while firing. They will "blow back out" and be usable again.
One thing I always do is zero my headspace measuring tool {mines a Stoney Point, but it's just like the Hornady} with a go gauge.

 

[M-61]

I have 2 sets of C&H dies in factory boxes that were made in the '60s. At the time C&H was located in El Monte, California. The instructions on the box says nothing about what brand shell holder is used, C&H recommended the dies be used with a shell holder with the correct height of .125". All of my shell holders have a deck height of .125"; I do have a few that are off, all of the 'off' shell holders were made by Pacific. All of my Pacific shell holders are identical to RCBS shell holders.

F. Guffey

I really tried on the last two sentences but I can't do it. What am I missing?

 

[M-61]

Thanks.

Like in school. Alice has 2 apples. Billy has 3 pears. What does Tom have in the bag?

 

[Conaso]

Like in school. Alice has 2 apples. Billy has 3 pears. What does Tom have in the bag?

All I know is I'm not reaching into Tom's bag to find out. However, if Alice ...

 

[Conaso]

Years ago, due to availability OCONUS, I started and stuck with Lyman Carbide Pistol Dies and Hornady Custom Grade Rifle Dies. RCBS were bought when I Lyman/Hornady were not available.

Shell Holder Deck Thickness
RCBS .125"
Hornady .135"
Lyman .096-.102" (very inconsistent, based on the 12 shell holders in the Lyman Shellholder Set)

 

[fguffey]

I do have a few that are off, all of the 'off' shell holders were made by Pacific. All of my Pacific shell holders are identical to RCBS shell holders.

The pacific shell holders are integral with the ram meaning they were made in the '50s. At the time RCBS had a press that required changing the ram when changing the shell holder' identical? The Pacific and RCBS ram with the integral shell holder was manufactured by RCBS. I have 47 Herter shell holders, the deck height for my Herter shell holders is .125", my Herter shell holders fit, there are advantages to fitting; my RCBS shell holders fit the case head like a hand-me-down shirt; my RCBS shell holders fit only where they touch.

Reloaders claim the brand/colors have to match; but according to C&H manufacturers got to together in the 60s to make sure that was not necessary. And it appears I am the only reloader that measures shell holder deck height.

F. Guffey