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Current thoughts on Melonite/Salt Bath Nitride

For those of you having your barrels melonited, can you tell me if there will be any negative affects in terms of accuracy?

Specifically, I shoot short range Benchrest, will I be putting myself at a disadvantage?

Thanks,
Josh
 
Nitriding does not change the dimensions of the part. If you have good accuracy before you will have the same accuracy after.
 
Nitriding does not change the dimensions of the part. If you have good accuracy before you will have the same accuracy after.

You sure about that! I will say I agree and I will say I don't agree.

For one thing c.m. vs. s.s. barrels process at different rates. You can leave the barrel in to long and it can wreck the barrel.

Also I've got physical prints in hand that call out a up to a +.001" laminate layer of build up. I've been told they can get up to +.0008" build up.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
I had one of my personal barrels done and it changed .0001". The accuracy didn't change nor did the cleaning and or velocity.

Later, Frank
 
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The Melonite process is something I was very familiar with while in the firearms industry. My company used it on some firearms that were considered "flag-ship" models. One place we used it was not only on AR barrels but inside them to replace the chrome-line. Those barrels were made by the thousands, button rifled with a 5R button, and never really given that extra care of the high quality barrels you would get from Bartlien or other barrel makers. I had one that took fifteen 30 round mags full of XM193 in less than ten minutes. It had to be handled with gloves and smoke boiled off it. I knew it was "toast" at that point but it stayed in my sample kit for another year before I retired. I shot the rifle a couple months before retiring and it shot, surprisingly, extremely well so I took a look down the barrel with my Hawkeye. I was very surprised to see how good of a shape it was in and, upon retiring, I made a special request to be able to purchase that rifle. Not saying this one incident is a valid test but I do believe in Melonite's value.
 
Melonite is a form of nitriding. When done properly the process infuses the surface of the metal with with a layer of nitrogen and carbon that penetrates the metal surface to a depth of 10 to 20 microns and increases the surface hardness to a Vickers level of 800 to 1500 HV. That is hard enough that you can't use a reamer on it. The finish lowers the sliding friction, keeps carbon from sticking to it, and helps prevent corrosion.
The infusion process doesn't add to the metal dimensionally because it fills the voids in the crystalline structure of the metal. It lasts longer than chrome plating and can be used on aluminum barrels too.
 
I just had to thread a muzzle on a rifle I already had melonited. Let me say Carbide cut it without a blink of the eye.
 
For those of you having your barrels melonited, can you tell me if there will be any negative affects in terms of accuracy?

Specifically, I shoot short range Benchrest, will I be putting myself at a disadvantage?

Thanks,
Josh

I know one thing for certain, heat is used to change things whether it's beef or steel. You're hoping the hardening process won't change things enough for you to notice, right? I would approach it with hope, but prepared to be disappointed. If it worked on precision barrels you would see them everywhere.

I speak from experience, just two months ago I had a 7mm teflon coated, it worked great for the first 50 rounds, then it decided to become a copper whore. ;-) not a characteristic I was looking for.

Good luck,

Joe
 
I know one thing for certain, heat is used to change things whether it's beef or steel. You're hoping the hardening process won't change things enough for you to notice, right? I would approach it with hope, but prepared to be disappointed. If it worked on precision barrels you would see them everywhere.

I speak from experience, just two months ago I had a 7mm teflon coated, it worked great for the first 50 rounds, then it decided to become a copper whore. ;-) not a characteristic I was looking for.

Good luck,

Joe


Do what??
 
Joel Kendrick has been doing some work with Melonite processes for target guns, having been an IBS 600-yard Shooter of the Year.
You might find him or Butch Lambert good sources of information.

I wonder if the Butch Lambert here is the same person???
 

I know one thing for certain, heat is used to change things whether it's beef or steel. You're hoping the hardening process won't change things enough for you to notice, right? I would approach it with hope, but prepared to be disappointed. If it worked on precision barrels you would see them everywhere.

I speak from experience, just two months ago I had a 7mm teflon coated, it worked great for the first 50 rounds, then it decided to become a copper whore. ;-) not a characteristic I was looking for.

Good luck,

Joe
Do what??


Now that's funny...
 
After this process is done to your good barrel, you may want to clean it very well...especially the threads and then ship it off for another week to get it cryo-froze to relieve all stress.
 
Josh, Bart Sauter replied to this very question on this board, I read it just this week. I can't remember the title of the thread. I am sure a search would get the answer from some one who understands your kind of accuracy.
 
Josh, Bart Sauter replied to this very question on this board, I read it just this week. I can't remember the title of the thread. I am sure a search would get the answer from some one who understands your kind of accuracy.
I think that response was on Bench Rest Central. Deja vu the Cryo craze of 15 years ago.
 
We won't warranty any barrels that have been melonited. We have no control over the process and who's doing it etc...also the different steels process at different rates. If the barrel is left in to long it will make it basically brittle on the surface and it will work against you. We replaced two barrels in the past and they ended up border line to hard.

Also data I got from the Army in accuracy testing the untreated barrels shot better accuracy wise out of the box. The treated barrels didn't start to shoot as good until they had right around 1k rounds on them. These we're in .338 Lapua. Also keep in mind the bores of the barrels when you get it back will have a dull hazy appearance and it is the scale build up from the process. I cleaned my barrel out. How many shooters especially military shooters are going to properly clean the barrels out when they get them back?

Too many variables for us to warranty the barrels if you get them melonited.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
This I posted some time ago. This comes up from time to time and you can find it using the search function.

You may find this interesting, see e-mail below.

I was the Armorer for the Army Reserve Shooting Team for over a decade so I do have quite a bit of experience with both processes.

As I am sure you know, most G.I. barrels are made from chrome molly steel which is more susceptible to corrosion than stainless steel. Chrome lining is used on G.I. bores both to extend their shooting life and to protect them from corrosion that can be a problem in battlefield conditions where maintenance is sometimes sporadic or insufficient. Chrome lining does a pretty good job of protecting battlefield weapons. One of the objections to chrome lining is that it is thought to decrease accuracy. This seems to be a valid criticism and is backed up by machine rest tests I have conducted of identical barrels (same manufacturer but half chrome lined and half not).

As you are aware most barrel "wear" is in the throat area. So eventually the hot gasses from the burning of the gunpowder will eat thru the chrome lining at the throat. It is rumored that at this point accuracy will plummet but I have not found that to be true. (Or if true, it is overstated or maybe only occurs for that short period when there is both chrome and bare steel in the throat simultaneously - just at the point of initial break thru.) Chrome lined barrels can continue to shoot well for thousands of rounds after the bare barrel steel at the back of the barrel (throat) has been exposed due to erosion of the chrome lining. Another criticism of chrome lining is that it can flake off later in the life of the barrel resulting in poor accuracy. Obviously, this could also cause maintenance problems if the user is depending on the chrome to ward off corrosion and thus is careless in his bore cleaning. If corrosion is allowed to occur pitting will result and that will ruin accuracy for sure.

Barrel pitting was one of the reasons I got involved in Salt Bath Nitriding. I was loosing nearly as many expensive match grade barrels to improper maintenance (causing pitting) as I was to wear out. This was under the relatively benign target shooting conditions. Obviously given the reputation of degraded accuracy, using chrome lining wasn't an option. So for the past couple of years I have been Salt Bath Nitriding all of my match barrels and haven't had a single one exhibit any pitting. During that 2 yr. period shooters have put anywhere from a few hundred rounds to thousands of rounds on said barrels. I don't know how long the coating will persist so at this point I am still evaluating it as a preservative. I don't know what will happen in another year or two when these barrels get more wear on them. Salt Bath Nitriding goes on both inside of the bore and on the outside surface. So, instead of 2 manufacturing steps you have combined them into one. Salt Bath Nitriding doesn't degrade accuracy one iota, unlike chrome lining. This was the first thing that I verified when I began using the process. I broke in a bunch of barrels and then machine rest tested them for group. I recorded and kept the targets, cleaned up the barrels, and sent them to MMi TruTec for the Isonite process. When they came back I reassembled them on the same receivers with the same torque settings, same bolt carrier assemblies, same flash suppressors, etc. Then they were retested with the same ammo lots. NO degradation in accuracy and about a 1% increase in muzzle velocity.

Chrome lined barrels seem to clean up rather easily after a range session. I found the ease of cleaning of Isonite coated barrels to be similar to chrome lined barrels. The Isonite barrels clean up the easiest of any non chrome lined barrels I have ever used. Isonite can be applied to either stainless or chrome molly but the factory needs to know what steel you are sending them because the application process varies a bit. Again, I only have about 2 yr. of cleaning experience with Salt Bath Nitrided barrels. I don't know if the ease of cleaning will continue as the barrels get more rounds on them. Generally speaking, most non coated barrels get harder to clean later in life. Although stainless has a reputation of being corrosion resistant it isn't corrosion proof (I have had plenty of them return pitted) so I coat both my C.M. and my SS barrels. The Isonite on the outside of the stainless barrels cuts reflection down so my shooters like it.

I mentioned flaking of chrome lining inside the bore. Joel Kendrick is my contact at MMi TruTec, the company in Arkansas that does my Salt Bath Nitriding (they call it Isonite). He was mentioning using the Salt Bath Nitriding inside the bore prior to chrome lining it to get a better adhesion. He is currently working with one of the military contractors (maybe F.N., but don't quote me on that) relative to this process. He has given me permission to give out his contact information so I have cc'd him in my reply to you. He can give you the specifics of any testing and evaluation that has been done relative to this process and can give you quotes, etc. should you just be interested in the Isonite by itself as I use it.

One last quick note on chrome lining. Such barrels have the reputation of changing point of impact when heated up. I have found this to be very true. It may be due to the way the different metals (chrome molly and chrome) expand inside the bore. What ever the reason, it does happen and, again, this was verified on a state of the art machine rest. Isonite doesn't exhibit this characteristic.

I am sure you are well aware of some of the things I covered. Lacking specific questions, I just sort of used a shotgun approach which ended up being fairly long. If I left anything unanswered please feel free to get back to me. I have enabled my Spam Blocker to allow your e-mails to come in with out the automated hate responses that Earth Link sends out. I am sure Joel would also be glad to clarify the technical aspects of the Salt Bath Nitriding process. So far I am very pleased with it.

Best of luck!
 
Butch, Nice write up!!!!

I'll add a couple of comments on the chrome plating of the bores.....I tell guys you don't want it from a accuracy point of view. What happens is the plating tends to build up at the chamber/throat end and muzzle end which is common. You end up with a non uniform bore sizes and it effects the accuracy. It's hard to get the plating to go uniformly down the bores. How the barrel is hung etc..

Also as you mentioned the chrome plating can have adhesion problems and or it will flake out as you shoot it. This not only causes accuracy issues but effects barrel life.

I have a book at home with some notes/documentation in it where the British ran test on chrome plating the bores of the barrels when switching over to 7.62 Nato. In regards to barrel life they really didn't find it to prolong barrel life at all. It was basically a wash. It does help with the corrosion some but just like chrome plating on a bumper of a car if you don't take care of it, it can still pit/corrode.

Again nice write up!!!!!!!

Later, Frank
 

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