(Free) Test F-Class Match at Talladega CMP

[Berger.Fan222]

https://www.facebook.com/BamaFClass/

(COPIED FROM THEIR FB PAGE)

I received the following note from Sara Rozanski today. Please note that you must pre-register for this match.

Hi, we would like to go forward with having an F-Class test on Jan 29th. We will have various markings on the targets to best decide which one the shooters like better. If you could spread the word and send out email shooters that would be great.

This is an open call for competitors to fire a practice match at the Talladega Marksmanship Park. Shooters will fire:
300 yards:
Unlimited sighters 5 min
1 string- 20 Record shots: 20

600 Yards:
Unlimited sighters 5 min
1 string- 20 Record shots: 20 min
2nd string- 2 sighters & 20 Record shots: 22 min

This will take place on Range 1, Sunday, January 29th. Volunteers for this test event will be given free range entry, however, you will need to provide your own ammunition. Please bring enough for ammo for any additional string(s) we may fire. If time permits you may continue shooting, so you may want to bring additional ammo.

The purpose of this is to test new software and test out other changes we’ve made to the target systems. Afterward, we would like to have an open discussion on our target systems. We would like to explain the changes we’ve made and get your feedback on the match. Walk-ins will not be accepted. Competitors interested in helping should email Sara Rozanski, at srozanski@thecmp.org to register.

All CMP range requirements will still be mandatory. The gates to the park will open at 12:30 am so paperwork can be filled out. The Safety briefing will begin at 12:30 pm, with firing immediately after at 1 pm.

Please email Sara with questions or call 256-474-4408 to speak with someone at the Talladega Marksmanship Park.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

I'd love a report from anyone in attendance at this event. My buddies and I had been watching the CMP and BamaFClass online calendars, but this event did not appear there. We didn't notice it until a couple days ago at the FB page, thus insufficient time to make needed arrangements.

I remain optimistic that Talladega CMP will get their act together, fix the issues with the electronic targets and scoring systems, release a schedule that they can stick to, treat participants better, and develop a track record of smoothly functioning scoring and matches.

 

[randy x]

I'd love a report from anyone in attendance at this event. My buddies and I had been watching the CMP and BamaFClass online calendars, but this event did not appear there. We didn't notice it until a couple days ago at the FB page, thus insufficient time to make needed arrangements.

I remain optimistic that Talladega CMP will get their act together, fix the issues with the electronic targets and scoring systems, release a schedule that they can stick to, treat participants better, and develop a track record of smoothly functioning scoring and matches.

Don't see how it could have been anybetter. The rings on the target were very clear. Target system worked really well. The people were great. Thanks cmp.and Bama F Class

 

[rduckwor]

Went up yesterday with some friends and shot the test match up there.

Background:

F-Class shooters had a huge bitch with the targets at the Talladega range as they had only a huge black bull on them. There was a dust up between CMP and SOME F-Class shooters about this and the perceived inability to finely aim at what was essentially a large black bull.

So, CMP figured out a way to put F-Class target faces on their system. Yesterday, they invited a bunch of us up to try them out.

I liked it. Didn't do well because of wind/cold/lack of practice. Three months since I pulled a trigger due to a variety of reasons.

After we finished, they had a discussion and taught us the intricacies of putting a F-Class target face on their electronic target system. It isn't as easy as one would think.

Suffice it to say that they have worked out some of the issues and continue to work on the remainder.

First formal F-Class match using the correct target faces is scheduled for March.

These people are doing their best to meet our needs and succeeding. Good attitude and great facility and staff.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

My buddies and I would greatly appreciate a notice posted in this forum when this year's F-Class events at Talladega CMP are announced. We are a bit disappointed not to have noticed this one until too late.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Report copied from
https://www.facebook.com/BamaFClass/posts/1242339655855289

The test match announced by the CMP was held today [29 Jan]. There were 30 competitors signed up for the match. All but one shot in either F-Open or F-TR. We had one sling shooter. The shooters could be classed as accomplished F-Class shooters, inexperienced F-Class shooters, new F-Class shooters, experienced on electronic targets or never shot on electronic targets.

The test match was to determine if it was possible to place an F-Class target face on the Kongsberg targets and if so what issues might arise in a competitive event.

A few negative issues were noted and they did not rise above the insignificant level from the shooters perspective. I personally interviewed nearly every shooter when they finished their first string. To a man, they were thrilled. The liked the speed with which the matches progressed, they liked the target face for aiming, and the accuracy of the scoring. One crossfire was noted and dealt with. There was a minor scoring issue noted and the shooter was moved to a different firing position with no further issues arising.

There was a readout after the match where the shooters were introduced to the working aspects of the Kongsberg target systems. The systems the operation of the scoring membranes and the maintenance of their maintenance was discussed.

The shooters were given an open-ended opportunity to discuss their experience at the range. The match can best be described as a successful functional test. There are economic issues to be resolved but, with the enthusiastic endorsement of those attending the match today, I am confident those issues will be resolved.

Watch this page for an announcement of future matches and practice opportunities.

The conditions were challenging, strong winds of varying strength and direction coupled with changing light conditions. The course of fire, 20 at 300 yards and 40 at 600 yards. Top scores were 597, 596, and 593. Excellent scoring in difficult conditions.

Thanks to all that took the time to participate, Ed

 

[corning]

... they had a discussion and taught us the intricacies of putting a F-Class target face on their electronic target system. It isn't as easy as one would think.

That shouldn't be the shooters problem, but the CMP's problem, and it should be transparent to the shooter.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

That shouldn't be the shooters problem, but the CMP's problem, and it should be transparent to the shooter.

How many hoops do you think most range operators will jump through for a niche market that is less than 1% of their business?

It's easy to say that the range operator should simply handle all the issues that arise, but the shooter has to make it worth their while. How much is the market willing to bear? $100 per match? $200? Probably not. Being happy with the current target face can get admission for $32 per day. We'll see how much demanding a special target face is gonna cost.

 

[Killshot]

A few questions:
Where there actual paper targets used or some different type of overlay?

How was the shot-out X-ring (if paper was used) at 300 handled?

Was there a shot delay?

Can a shooter view the shots of other shooters?

 

[slamfire1]

Can a shooter view the shots of other shooters?

No, you can not use anyone else as a wind gage. I have heard this expressed by some very good shooters who examine other shooter's targets during the match, looking at them to determine wind changes. Your electronic display is the only media on which shots are displayed, the flat screen is orientated towards the shooter and scorer, if you are shooting from an adjacent firing point, you will not be able to see the monitor on your left or right, doubtless you would not be able to discriminate the shots anyway, nor will you see anything on the target downrange except a black dot or, whatever paper target face was put on the target.

So, you will have to use your best judgement about wind conditions and you will not be able to monitor how the wind moves the bullets of others.

Was there a shot delay?

The current system displays the shot on the monitor instantly.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

A few questions:
Where there actual paper targets used or some different type of overlay?

How was the shot-out X-ring (if paper was used) at 300 handled?

Was there a shot delay?

Can a shooter view the shots of other shooters?

It is uncommon that local matches result in shot-out X rings at 300 yards with only 40 shots for record on that target before moving to 600 yards. X counts just are not usually that high.

I doubt they are gonna stop the line and delay the whole match to replace target faces between the 1st and 2nd relays when there are only 40 shots for record at 300 yards. X counts just are not usually high enough to destroy the center in the first relay of the day.

 

[USMCDOC]

How was the shot-out X-ring (if paper was used) at 300 handled?

Since the target is not being pulled and scored "electronically", what does it matter if the center gets shot out.. It isn't like you need a firmness to hold a shot spotter!

 

[Killshot]

Hmmm, we regularly need a new 300 center after 10 shots of a 20-shot string and use orange golf-tees as shot spotters.

Many dislike shooting at something that isn't there/they cannot see and it makes scoring 10s/Xs difficult. I'll gladly wait 30 seconds for a fresh Center from my puller.
Stop and delay the match"??? You guys DO use a Prep Time to set up between Relays, don't you?

300yd relays are always decided by X count with the crew I shoot against. Hell, it's a whole inch and a half wide at just Three Hundred yards!

IMHO, the scoring system should adapt to the shooter's requirements, not the other way around.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

300yd relays are always decided by X count with the crew I shoot against. Hell, it's a whole inch and a half wide at just Three Hundred yards!

Why not give a link to some online score reports to back that up?

The local 300 yard matches in and near Alabama give no such evidence. Perusing a few score reports from Central Alabama Gun Club shows the F-Open winner usually drops 15 or more points in a 40 shot match and putting more than half the shots in the X ring is rare. There is one shooter at the 300 yard match at PCGC who has near perfect scores and punishes the X ring, but no one else in anywhere close. The online results for 300 yard matches at Talladega only show one shooter with a 200, so X counts don't seem to be deciding matches there either.

No doubt there may be places where the 300 yard match is an X count contest, particularly with still days, good shooters, and lots of investment in equipment and load development. The state of F-Class in and near Talladega is far from that. But you are welcome to come to Alabama and show everyone what you can do.

 

[lal357]

Why not give a link to some online score reports to back that up?

The local 300 yard matches in and near Alabama give no such evidence. Perusing a few score reports from Central Alabama Gun Club shows the F-Open winner usually drops 15 or more points in a 40 shot match and putting more than half the shots in the X ring is rare. There is one shooter at the 300 yard match at PCGC who has near perfect scores and punishes the X ring, but no one else in anywhere close. The online results for 300 yard matches at Talladega only show one shooter with a 200, so X counts don't seem to be deciding matches there either.

No doubt there may be places where the 300 yard match is an X count contest, particularly with still days, good shooters, and lots of investment in equipment and load development. The state of F-Class in and near Talladega is far from that. But you are welcome to come to Alabama and show everyone what you can do.

my 399-24x i think is the high at central alabama we switch to 4 targets 10 shots at each the one thing i have noticed for me is after i shoot out the X my groups open up some because i dont have a good aiming point (the x) but this is just me and my views the other reason we went to 4 targets is because it gets hard to score a 20 round target with the a big hole in the center

 

[GeoffR]

Since the target is not being pulled and scored "electronically", what does it matter if the center gets shot out.. It isn't like you need a firmness to hold a shot spotter!

Actually, a big hole in the centre does seem to affect accuracy - especially if the hole is in the rear face of the target. We have considerable engineering and anecdotal data that supports this.

After time, holes scattered broadly throughout the rear face will eventually result in intermittent shot registrations (along with progressively increasing measurement errors), and if not addressed, target failure.

To our surprise, it was evident in an open target we tested also (an "open" target is one that has no front and rear face that forms a chamber).

There are lots of things that degrade the shot measurement performance of an acoustic target. Holes in the target is only one of them...

Geoff.

 

[XTR]

Why not give a link to some online score reports to back that up?

The local 300 yard matches in and near Alabama give no such evidence. Perusing a few score reports from Central Alabama Gun Club shows the F-Open winner usually drops 15 or more points in a 40 shot match and putting more than half the shots in the X ring is rare. There is one shooter at the 300 yard match at PCGC who has near perfect scores and punishes the X ring, but no one else in anywhere close. The online results for 300 yard matches at Talladega only show one shooter with a 200, so X counts don't seem to be deciding matches there either.

No doubt there may be places where the 300 yard match is an X count contest, particularly with still days, good shooters, and lots of investment in equipment and load development. The state of F-Class in and near Talladega is far from that. But you are welcome to come to Alabama and show everyone what you can do.

If you want the "state of F class" to advance then it needs to have a system that supports that advancement.

Pls see the 300 yard scores from the Sinclair Fullbore match at Butner last yr. Those scores leave a big ragged hole in the target in short order.

http://sinclairfullborenationals.businesscatalyst.com/_results/2016_Day1.pdf

http://sinclairfullborenationals.businesscatalyst.com/_results/2016_Day2.pdf

http://sinclairfullborenationals.businesscatalyst.com/_results/2016_Day3.pdf

Personally I dropped 4 points in 30 shots with 15X shooting a 223 in F-TR.

I seem to recall that in 2015 Randy Graham shot a 100 - 11X at 500 yards at Butner.

F class shooters can and do demolish the aiming point at mid range.


Oh yea, and Danny Biggs is from Alabama..... he has been known to shoot OK on occasion.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

If you want the "state of F class" to advance then it needs to have a system that supports that advancement.

Pls see the 300 yard scores from the Sinclair Fullbore match at Butner last yr. Those scores leave a big ragged hole in the target in short order.

http://sinclairfullborenationals.businesscatalyst.com/_results/2016_Day1.pdf

http://sinclairfullborenationals.businesscatalyst.com/_results/2016_Day2.pdf

http://sinclairfullborenationals.businesscatalyst.com/_results/2016_Day3.pdf

Personally I dropped 4 points in 30 shots with 15X shooting a 223 in F-TR.

I seem to recall that in 2015 Randy Graham shot a 100 - 11X at 500 yards at Butner.

F class shooters can and do demolish the aiming point at mid range.


Oh yea, and Danny Biggs is from Alabama..... he has been known to shoot OK on occasion.

It never makes sense to me to cite the best shooters and matches in the country as if they should dictate how local matches are run at the club level.
Until someone shows up and shoots at Talladega, their scores are irrelevant to how that match needs to be run.

F-Class shooters can and do, but at Talladega, they don't, or at least they haven't yet.

I judge the "state of F-Class" from the number of participants at local matches and the lack of barriers to participation, not by the scores of shooters with many thousands of dollars invested.

I'd rather double the numbers of marksmen and sharpshooters than increase the scores of the High Masters.

 

[XTR]

Maybe someone isn't promoting it the right way. Look north to Nashville, or west to Houston, or over to Laurel and there are swarms of F class shooters.

If it can't handle the best then what is the point?

I drove from New Hampshire to Oak Ridge to defend the state championship that I wasn't even still eligible to win. Don't see me traveling to T for a match if the equipment isn't up to scratch. I'm going to wager the CMP knows that and arguing with you on the inter webs is, well, pointless.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Maybe someone isn't promoting it the right way.

Most of the score reports I see from ORSA in 2016 show far less than the 30 F-Class shooters who have been showing up regularly for the F-Class matches at Talladega.

Talk about not being promoted in the right way. The state championship hosted by MidSouth Marksmen came the closest with 27 F-Class shooters.

But don't spout off about not "promoting it the right way" when some events at your favored club only had 8-12 F-Class shooters. Not what I call "swarms." See:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...WhwLmNvbXxvcnNhaHB8Z3g6NGY5ZDExZDA4YTM3ZWU5ZA

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...WhwLmNvbXxvcnNhaHB8Z3g6MTdiNWMzMWE3ZTY3M2M3OQ

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...WhwLmNvbXxvcnNhaHB8Z3g6MjZhMjhhMmU1MjU0NTJhNQ